Urgent advice needed - very serious post.

[hblair]

You must reason with lil johnny Hang. You must teach him goodness, not badness. If he begins breaking glass jars on the floor of the supermarket, well ask him to please stop. If that doesn't work tell him to please stop. If that doesn't work, give him a nifty job to improve his sense of worth. If that doesn't work, well, you shouldn't have taken him to the grocery to start with!
Whatever you do, NEVER EVER pop his rear with your open hand to get his attention. He will lose all self respect and you will be a big bully thug!

(sorry guys, couldn't resist )

[Ripsnort]

Child behaviorial experts all agree that positive re-inforcement should be present at all times of behavior that is demonstrated as good behavior...but they also agree that consequences for bad behavior are necessary.  Granted, the more you positively reinforce your children, the less likelihood that you'll ever need to apply negative or consequencial behavior methods.

Now, I'm SURE we've all been in the grocery line where the kids are just plain and simply out of control, and the mother is bliss about the whole affair...sometimes a good sharp swat on the butt to get their attention is just whats needed...

Then you have parents like Thrawn and Tang that are very fortunate to have kids who temperment is very even...good for you..I personally wish I would never have to discipline my boys, but unforturnately, I don't want to be the parent that folks stare at in public because my kids are completely out of hand because I'm using YOUR method of child rearing  (I do in the positive reinforcement part).

There is no "one way" to raise a kid..but one thing is certain..they DO need positive reinforcement all the time when they're behavior is good.  If you are consistent on this, the chances are you'll be dealing less with unwanted behavior.

Now, Tang, get your hubby in a good rehab program...then you'll really have a complete family.

[midnight Target]

LOL, I just asked my 14 yr old if she remembers getting spanked. She sat there for a long time and said the only thing she remembers was the time I threw something at her. I gasped! What did I ever throw at you? I said.

Last year she reminded me of the time she wasn't where she was supposed to be, missed her bus because she was talking to a boy at football practice! I threw a pillow at her when I got her home. Luckily the boy was gone when I picked her up, because I wasn't thinking "pillow" at that time.

That I guess is the extent of my personal child abuse. I hope all goes well for you Thrawn & Tang. Just remember that kids have a way of taking a perfectly performing little household and shredding it to a pulp in their tiny little cute pudgy fingers.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hangtime

Tranqilizer dart him?

LOL

Mutual of Omaha

I'm picturing Marlon Perkins sending in his sidekick Jim to wrestle the unruly tike into the shopping cart.

[Ripsnort]

Midnight, my parents said they had to spank me more as a child than my sisters...but I don't remember one spanking to this date...I do remember things from 2 years old, such as my sisters trying to steal my icecream, and other silly things like that, but the spankings?  Don't remember them at all.

[Thrawn]

Eagler, I wasn't the one that brought up teen pregnancy.

Kierian, we don't believe time outs necessarily work, as my wife stated in her post.

Ripsnort, non-coersion doesn't mean being blissfully unaware.

You guys aren't stupid, so I know you can understand the posts.  Are you just not reading them?

hblair, no she does not necessarily go home at the end of the day.  She's taken care of other peoples kids for weeks at a time.

Hang,  my wife will post a response shortly.

[Kanth]

Originally posted by wulfie
Well, the Mom grabs the 3 year old by one arm and really yanks him aside. Like his neck cracked like a whip. And then she slaps him hard on the cheek and spanks him *really* hard on his butt...for kicking me.

So Mom really smacked him hard. Like 3 fingers visible on the kid's cheek.

Mike/wulfie

 imo she went too far from your description and should have someone talk to her about the difference between getting a childs attention for correcting behavior and smacking them in the face (imo nothing ever calls for someone to hit a child in the face) and spanking them repeatedly extra hard...

chaplain , ( i think i read later on in this thread) was prolly the best call you could make.

At least he'll be around to see if anything bad shows up with those kids..(bruises, more broken arms etc)

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by AKIron


Come on Eskimo, are you suggesting that every 3 year old that bites or hits another child has been abused?  

No, but I think that this kid has been.  Mom has a problem and can't control herself.  The kid has or will learn the same behavior.

Originally posted by AKIron

Kids do not interact well socially by nature, not how we want them to anyhow. They are selfish and must be taught.

I think kids do interact well socially by nature.  They certainly have problems with each other at times, but also show compassion to all people and creatures, and very often are morally more honorable than most adults (in many respects).

I managed a first grade classroom for three years.  Many/some of the parents of my students were: drug dealers, in gangs, in jail, on welfare, dead, single parents, dead-beat-dads, alcoholics and were abusive and neglectful.  These parents often complained that their kids had no respect for them and wouldn't behave no matter what they did.  In my classroom, however, these same kids would often behave, follow directions and treat others with respect, even though they knew that I would never hit them.
Even the "worst" kids respond well to positive re-enforcement.  If kids know that you love and respect them, that you care about them, that you would never hurt them, they will behave reasonably.  My classroom was a "haven" where my students felt safe.  

If they misbehaved, they lost privileges.  
Doing wrong meant a calm discussion with me over what kind of behavior is expected, (followed by an apology to whomever, if appropriate), and temporarily losing a privilege.

I never hit a kid.
My students had at least one role model who could deal with any situation without resorting to violence.

eskimo

[Kieran]

I totally read your stuff, and completely understand it. To boil it down to its essence, you've said that under no circumstance should any parent resort to spanking, and the suggestion is that any parent that does has simply lost control of their anger.

And you're wrong.

It seems you assume that people that spank do so as a first resort and with little provocation. It seems you view them as out-of-control, almost enjoying, even looking forward to, the experience. Sorry, that isn't how it is.

That list of creative solutions your wife posted includes some serious flaws- chief amongst them is the concept that misdirection equals discipline. Wrong. Giving the child a job may prevent the problem from occuring, but it doesn't solve the problem if it occurs- and sooner or later, problems do occur. Exercising the boys may wear them out, but it didn't teach them to deal with one another socially, nor did it teach them conflict resolution. In short, I saw the list as avoiding situations (great), but devoid of how to handle scenarios such as those outlined by Hangtime and Hblair.

Sure there are parents that avoid corporal punishment. My sister-in-law has a 2-year-old that is defiant. The sister asked my wife how she kept our daughters from doing the things her daughter is now doing. "I smacked their hand". Of course that is just barbaric to the sister, so the 2-year-old continues to do as she pleases. Meanwhile, all it takes to get our daughters to do anything is to tell them. Both of them have a grand total of perhaps 10 spankings between them- and I can't remember the last one for either- and are very well behaved. Neither one have ever had a mark left on them. Both of them do understand spanking isn't the first option, but it IS an option.

[Ripsnort]

I guess I should reply to the original poster, wulfie.  

Yes, I think the woman went too far.  I don't believe you should ever strike a child on the face or "jerk" them around like that.  

I do believe that a spanking is justified for extremely  bad behavior, but as they get older, there are other methods that work much better such as loss of priveliges. Spanking beyond the age of 3 or 4 is pointless and in some cases can cause long term effects (apparently).

Again, most of this negative reinforcement can be avoided with positive reinforcement.  When your kids are playing together nicely, or with the neighbor kids, tell them.  Reward them. Tell them what great kids they are.  And first and foremost, always tell them you love them.  Hug them.  

[Thrawn]

Tang again, not sure how to use the quote feature so I used [] to denote quotes.

["if I hit and scream and raise holy hell & I'll eventually get what i want.." is beginnning to take root.. ]

This only happens if they get what they want.  Are you giving them the toy because they scream for it.  That would not happen in my house.

Didn't see this last night [Johnny is 2 1/2 years old. johnnys a headstrong lil boy.

Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy.

You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. Johnny shrieks and refuses to go to the time out chair. When you attempt to move johnny physicly to the time out chair he swings at you. When you pick him up he bites you.

you do what?]

What would I do?  First of all most 2 yr old do not understand *share*.  Taking turns usually works better.  

["Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy" ] - Johnny would be physically removed from the situation.  

["You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. "] - I don't think time outs work for most kids.  They usually just piss them off.  I would tell J we don't hurt other people..yada yada... and model what Johnny should have done. Asking his cousin for a turn.  If J repeated the performance, that's it, play time is over and we leave.  If that's not possible, seperated from cousin.  The natural consequences are J doesn't get the toy unless his behaviour is appropriate, if it isn't he doesn't get to play with his cousin and or cousin won't want to play with him.    You can scold a 2 year old all you want but if you don't tell them what they should have done they aren't likely to think of it by themselves, they are only 2.  

I don't see how hitting your kid because they hit someone makes any sense.  It just teaches them that only people in authority are allowed to hit, not that hitting is wrong.

The thing about tantrums is that I don't care what other people are thinking if we are in public.  The kid can tantrum all they want they still are not going to get whatever they want.   If I feel they are bothering people I would simply leave.  Spanking in  public to stop a tantrum isn't done to help the child behave it is usually done because you are embarassed.  Personally I don't care if someone else's kids are having a tantrum at the grocery store, I know how hard it can be to get through the store with kids in tow and I'm not going to judge their entire parenting on one episode.  

One family I worked for were very permissive.  Their kids put up a fuss and they get what they want.  The three year old tried this on me.  He learnt quickly that that approach was not going to work.  I didn't have to spank him just didn't reward the tantrum with what he wanted and when he was calm told him what was expected of him.  After two tantrums that behaviour stopped for me.  Five years later he still throws fits at his parents and it works.  They use time outs  by the way.

["but they also agree that consequences for bad behavior are necessary. "] - I agree, I just don't think consequences has to equal *punishment* in all cases.  Lots of things have natural consequences that will teach them more than punishing.  

Anyway I'm finding this topic hard to discuss in text and there is a lot more to it than these simple examples.   I really don't think I'm gonna change anyone's mind any more than you are going to change mine so I think I'll leave it at that.  However I can say that I have never been permissive.  I can't stand whiney kids and parents who beg their kids to do things.  If you want their behaviour changed get off your bellybutton and intervene and don't set them up in situations they are likely unable to deal with.

Tang

[Hangtime]

it's an aggravating world, Tang.. and i appreciate you taking the time to give us your insight.

you are also correct.. it's not at all possible to change my mind regarding appropriate parental behavior.. yes, I woulda paddled lil jonnies heiny, ended play time AND explained to lil johnny why he got spanked and how he should behave. Reasoning alone with a 2 year old is kinda like dealing with politicians. You need not just a carrot, but the presence of the stick to get anywhere. No stick, no performance. No carrot, nothin to work for.

I have abolutely no doubt that by the second or third such episode, lil johnny would not resort to violence and tantrums.. and neither would I.

again.. thank you for your considered and polite response.. it was more than we deserved.

Now.. smack yer hubby up side the head and tell him to take out the garbage, mow the damn lawn, repaint the house and get the damn laundry done, or there's no nooky fer him tonight.

Carrot.. stick.

[Thrawn]

sigh- me again, [That list of creative solutions your wife posted includes some serious flaws- chief amongst them is the concept that misdirection equals discipline. Wrong. Giving the child a job may prevent the problem from occuring, but it doesn't solve the problem if it occurs- and sooner or later, problems do occur. Exercising the boys may wear them out, but it didn't teach them to deal with one another socially, nor did it teach them conflict resolution. In short, I saw the list as avoiding situations (great), but devoid of how to handle scenarios such as those outlined by Hangtime and Hblair. ]

No what I didn't include was *punishments*.  Teaching your child what they CAN do at the store IS discipline.  Two year olds do not inherently know what is socialy acceptable.

As for the boys I wasn't talking about discipline.  In my experience though if you take 2 hyper little boys and keep them inside all day and let them watch tv and play nintendo they become irritable, nasty and unreasonable.  Why not avoid the situation if you can.  Depending on their age they can work stuff out themselves.  Seperate activities, involve them in whatever you are doing etc..and explain what is expected of them.  If you give them acceptable alternatives to expressing their anger other than beating their brother you ARE disciplining.  You are teaching them how to deal with their emotions and feelings in a socially acceptable way.  You can come up with your own ideas of what is acceptable in your house wheather it is going for a walk or hitting a punching bag or whatever.  

Tang

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Johnny is 2 1/2 years old. johnnys a headstrong lil boy.

Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy.

You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. Johnny shrieks and refuses to go to the time out chair. When you attempt to move johnny physicly to the time out chair he swings at you. When you pick him up he bites you.

you do what?

I know this kid!
His name wasn't Johnny, but I've had a few students just like him!
The answer to this one is simple.  But the adult had better be patient, consistent and follow through with what he/she says.  As a parent I would say:

"Johnny, you will sit in time-out right now, or you will lose all TV for the rest of today and tomorrow."

- Johnny will probably kick and flail and scream some more.

"Johnny, you have just lost all TV for the rest of today and tomorrow."  "You will sit in time-out right now, or you will not be able to use the computer for the rest of today and tomorrow."

- Johnny will may or may not kick and flail and scream some more.

"Johnny, you will not be able to use the computer for the rest of today and tomorrow."  "You will sit in time-out right now, or you will not get any desert or candy for the rest of today and tomorrow."

- Repeat as needed.
- What Johnny does at this point (or after your first or second threat of loss of a privilege) is a reflection of how consistent you are as a parent at following through.  If you have consistently given-in in the past, or forgotten to follow through you are in for a long drawn out battle.

The most important thing is that you follow through with the loss of privilege that you said would be taken away!

This is very effective if you are consistent.
This method will not be very effective the first time that you try it.  Once you prove to your child that you mean what you say however, it will be very effective.
Some may say that a spanking would be quicker and simpler.  True, but that does not make it the best method.  Being a good parent does not mean that you always choose the simplest and quickest solution.  
Just like dogfighting, the best solution isn't always a mutually-destructive, quick and simple Head-On.

Note - I have seen parents spank their kids in grocery stores as well.  Spanking does not solve all parenting problems.  I have seen kids scream and carry on even louder after being spanked.

When my kid (just turned 3) starts to lose it in the grocery store, all I have to do is whisper in her ear, "Keep that up and no Dragon Tails (TV show) today."  A build up to a tantrum dissolves instantly.

eskimo

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Thrawn
 

.   I really don't think I'm gonna change anyone's mind any more than you are going to change mine so I think I'll leave it at that.

Although I do not agree with much of Yrawn's bluster, he's wining me over in this thread.  I was spanked, and it worked well enough I suppose, but I'd like to give it a go down a different path. Then again, I don't have any kids yet, so we'll see lol.

-Sikboy