Debunking some myths about Patton, Rommel, Yamamoto, etc.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Horn
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870210971/qid=1030725611/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-2781109-9927948?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

dh

Thanks, I just added it to my 'wish list'

[Wlfgng]

c'mon wulfe fork over the info before I go to sleep here at work...       c'mon.. do it..

[midnight Target]

My favorite Patton story is the Olympics in 1912.

From memory so check this if you like. He competed in the Pentathlon (not the same one Jim Thorpe competed in, but a "military" version, and the one still in today's Olympics.

It is based on the concept that a single soldier must get a message to his headquarters. He must swim, run, ride an unfamiliar horse, fence and shoot. Not sure about the order.

Patton did so well in 4 out of the 5 catagories that he would have won the competition with even a fair performance in the shooting event. He screwed the pooch however and finished well back in the pack (like 23rd or something) and ended up 5th or 6th in the overall totals.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by wulfie


2. Rommel isn't on the 'top 20 list' for German operational/strategic commanders in WW2 according to a very detailed DoD study conducted in the 1950s and 1960s that involved the interviewing of many WW2 German operational/strategic commanders. More on this later.

Mike/wulfie

Rommel's fatal flaw was his grasp (or lack of) of logistics.

His daring was also matched with his total disregard with the problems of supply and logistical requirements.

His impulsive advances often left his supply lines over stretched and weakened, and his constant moves to the front often made the overall strategic  supply demands left to his chief supply officer who was a lowly major in 1941, and other  difficult decisions left to the excellent Afrika leaders like Cruewell, Nehring, and Bayerlein.

Rommel's excellent tactical moves were often based on his highley efficient Fernmeldeaufklarung, the Afrika Korp's mobile radio monitoring service.

Tronsky

[fdiron]

The Hurtgen forrest chewed up about 25,000 Americans.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Mav
 The TIger one, two and Panther all had gas engines I think? Did the Panzer IV?

OOPS!!!!!! my bad.  Shoulda checked my references first. Yep they had the Maybach HL 230 V-12 gas engine.

[fdiron]

IIRC, Patton put a hold on M-26s from replacing Shermans because they were too heavy to cross pontoon bridges. Doesn't matter if you have a gas or diesel engine, if a 88mm or 75mm from a Tiger or Panther hits your Sherman, you are out of comission.  What a lunatic (Patton).

[Maverick]

Originally posted by fdiron
IIRC, Patton put a hold on M-26s from replacing Shermans because they were too heavy to cross pontoon bridges. Doesn't matter if you have a gas or diesel engine, if a 88mm or 75mm from a Tiger or Panther hits your Sherman, you are out of comission.  What a lunatic (Patton).

If you can't get the armor accross the bridges to get into combat, they are totally ineffective.  Rivers were a fairly significant obstacle in Europe. That is, if you want to believe that is why they were kept out of combat. The 88 would penetrate the frontal armor of the M26 as well. On the other hand, the M26's gun (90mm) could penetrate the tiger as well.

The M26 was blooded after an emergency call by the Army General Staff. All available M26's were ordered to Europe  to get them into the theater ASAP after the experiance in the ardenes. Twenty tanks, all that were available, were shipped to Europe in January of 1945. By the beginning of February they were issued to the 3rd and 9th Armored division.

In short, they were not available for general use until too late in the war. On the other hand by August 1945 2,435 had been built. Some saw action in the Pacific and there were being staged in prepararion for the invasion of Japan.

[Pongo]

Rommels ememies had radio intercepts, excellent logistics and vast numerical supperiority..and he still out fought them. He may not be in the top 20 German generals(who else in the german army had to fight accross a sea?) but he would have easily been the best the allies had.

[Nashwan]

Rommels ememies had radio intercepts, excellent logistics and vast numerical supperiority..and he still out fought them.

Rommel had the best tactical intelligence of any commander during the war.

The allies had Ultra, which gave updates on the German supply situation, troop movements etc. It was usefull on a strategic scale, but not tactically. It often took days to decode a particular message.

Rommel was reading the reports sent by the US military attache in Cairo, Fellers. Fellers sent incredibaly detailed reports, giving the location of individual battalions, reports on morale, details of special operations, even the timing of Lord Gort's aircraft (it was shot down and Gort killed). Feller's reports were decoded practically in real time.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Pongo
Rommels ememies had radio intercepts, excellent logistics and vast numerical supperiority

As Nashwan has already noted, Rommel's  radio intercepts and intelligence were far superior than the British armies.

While the British army often outnumbered the German tanks by 3 to 1, the British tanks were often inferior for desert warfare, a large number needing complete rebuilds due to inadequate preparation in shipping. Quite often the British tanks were obsolete before even being shipped from Britain.

 

but he would have easily been the best the allies had.

Rommel was only mirroring Major-General R.N O'Connor's offensives in 1940, where he routed the Italian army with the Western Desert Force with only 500 killed and 1,373 wounded.

Tronsky