Author Topic: KG2 and TOD  (Read 1103 times)

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« on: September 06, 2002, 03:59:19 PM »
In order to make things perfectly clear to all taking part in the Sunday TOD:

1. KG2 was heavily committed to BoB. This (BoB)  was known of well in advance.

2. We were not expecting any Sunday TODs to be run until after BoB had finished, not only because that would involve us flying on both days of the weekend, but also because BoB required our attendance for nearly 6 hours on the Saturdays.  Frankly, keen as we are on flying in organised games, we do like SOME time to go do other things at weekends...  Therefore

3. We were not keeping a close eye on the TOD forum. When it did dawn on us that we were being expected to fly on the Sundays after the TOD frames, it was with far too little warning for us to do much about it. I did try to reach my pilots, but the only one I managed to contact in time was not willing to fly on the Sundays after BoB on the Saturdays any more than I was.

4. It is the feeling of our unit, with all due respect to the CMs, that it was a mistake to schedule a TOD to start concurrently with BoB; it was certainly over optimistic to expect us to be able to take part at such short notice with us having already committed heavily to BoB.

5. Not having taken part in Frames 1 and 2 of the current TOD for the above reasons, I am startled to find that some folk are still hoping to see us in Frame 3 of the current TOD! Here I can't speak for the rest of the unit, but I for one am still recovering from work-related stress and a sharp case of flight-sim burnout.  I personally will NOT be flying in TOD this Sunday.  I have just emailed the rest of the unit about Sunday, but I have NO idea what the response will be. Please do not be surprised or upset if none of us appear this  Sunday.

6. I am expecting that KG2 will be ready to fly in the next TOD.

7. We request that CMs give more notice of TODs.  A single week is not really sufficient.  Two would be much better, a month ideal.

KG2 exists to take part in organised games - we do not even exist as an MA unit - everything other than organised games is, to us, either practice or just messing about.  We fully support the aims of the TOD series of games and the efforts of the CMs who put together games for all of us to fly in. However, in this instance, a little too much was expected of us at too short notice, is all. We look forward to taking part in future TOD's to the best of our ability.

Fr. Maj. Esme,
Kommodore, Kampfgeschwader 2 "Holzhammer"

Offline sling322

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3510
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2002, 02:41:04 PM »
Sunday TOD COs...plan on not having KG2 available for the TOD.

Esme, you obviously didnt read what was expected of your squad when you signed up for the TOD.  

You and your squad may fly as guests in the next few TODs and when you think you can get organized well enough and can understand what is expected of you, we will reconsider your re-activation then.

Offline Dux

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7333
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2002, 12:13:21 AM »
"It is the feeling of our unit, with all due respect to the CMs, that it was a mistake to schedule a TOD to start concurrently with BoB..."

Not that I am anybody, but I would have to agree with this. Are you sure you guys can't find just a little bit of leniency in this matter?
Rogue Squadron, CO
5th AF, FSO Squadron, Member

We all have a blind date with Destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster.

Offline daddog

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15082
      • http://www.332nd.org
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2002, 11:34:59 AM »
Never hurts to put in your two cents dux. :)

The truth tends to get ummm twisted in some posts.  There was plenty of notice and the rules are quite clear as sling stated.

Dates for the BoB were known WEEKS ahead of time.  I post almost every Friday on events.  

Finally there is only one squad who was a "no-show" and this is the second time for them! Sling has been very patient. When I was running the TOD's any squad who did not show up "once" was gone. Sling gave them a second chance to get their act together.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2002, 02:48:57 PM »
BOB was NOT a squad based event. Evidenced by the registration process.

TOD IS a squad based event. So, I welcome the TOD's  anytime the first come/first serve type events like the BOB come around.
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Dux

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7333
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2002, 06:43:45 PM »
Thanks, Daddog... that's all it was; my two cents. :)

I'm unaware of the history (and wish to stay that way... not my business) between the CMs and KG2. However, I still think Esme outlined some very valid points in the above post, points that stand on their own merit, independent of any current situation.

I know that Rogue Squadron has walked that fine line a couple of times. A... we're a small squad. B... about half of us are active military, I myself am DoD, so in these current times attendance cannot always be guaranteed. Sometimes we get almost no advanced warning of any real-life responsibilities. We enjoy participating in the TODs, and would really feel bad if we were ejected from the rest of them because we had to miss a single one. The timing of BoB was, to put it bluntly, a real pain, and I can't help but empathize a little with KG2... it's just my nature.

Just another 2 cents. Consider it for what it is.
Rogue Squadron, CO
5th AF, FSO Squadron, Member

We all have a blind date with Destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster.

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2002, 07:12:39 PM »
for previous events though tod was put on hold while the event ran.

It was a tough descision for me and a few of my guys to make both friday tod and sat bob.

Sat are usually family day, same with sundays and ver few of my squad get much flying time in.

Frame 2 of the friday tod I just showed up just to get through it so I could get back to BoB. This lead to poor descisions and concentration on my part. Ultimately I got my whole squad killed.


I understand that tod are more important to some folks then Scenarios. If that cant be delayed then some leeway should be given to the squads who have folks involved in both.

Esme was my XO for bob. She had a lot on her plate then to face a tod without having the time to concentrate on it. I had the same problem.

Not to mention the hassel of getting all the folks in and out of squads for both events. Was a real hassel at times.

Offline daddog

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15082
      • http://www.332nd.org
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2002, 09:59:11 PM »
I have had squads that gave me notice they can’t attend a frame or wanted to drop out for a period of time. That was fine. I have had new squads drop the ball and not show up. They contacted me and explained their error or the cause of the miss communication. Again that was fine. I have not had squads who blame the CM’s for their shortcomings and then not show up TWICE. Bit much IMHO.  

In any case it is over and delt with by sling. I just wanted it to be clear to everyone why he did what he did with my support.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 01:32:59 AM »
I beg your pardon? TWICE? This is the FIRST time that KG2 has entirely no-showed for a TOD to the best of my knowledge. And I am perfectly aware of the TOD rules, Sling.

With all due respect to the CMs, by giving such short notice of a TOD when they KNOW that there is a big game like BoB already on, they are in essence DEMANDING that I spend the whole of my weekend focusing on AH - and anyone else who is a member of a TOD squad and who had signed up for BoB. The CM's knew of when BoB was scheduled for months. They could easily have avoided scheduling a TOD at the same time but chose not to do so.

Daddog, if this is indeed regarded as over, then TOD has lost any claim to being a serious attempt to involve dedicated players, so far as I am concerned. The attitude expressed by yourself and Sling show either no regard for or otherwise understanding of the reality of the situation.

I personally was putting in so much effort and time on BoB - and getting somewhat stressed about it (albeit on top of generalised life stress as well) that I lost my temper with the CMs in that to such an extent that I damned near got myself thrown out of the game - and I wouldnt have argued against that. Whilst my concerns were solely for the good of the game to be played, the way in which I behaved at the time was decidedly not helpful, and I regret that I did lose my temper as I did. This is different, and I do argue against it.

Amid all that, you expect me to be looking out for notice of a TOD on a daily basis, when, as I have stated, the entire unit wasnt expecting any until AFTER BoB, and so some of us are out of contact, and others (my XO, Douwe) overworked on AH-related stuff already? That's a bit damned much.

It would have been sensible for the TOD CM's to think  about the situation and give more warning of the TOD. Indeed, it would generally be a good thing to have more advanced warning of individual TOD games, but certainly when they clash with large ORGABNISED (that's the operative word, folks) games like BoB it is ESSENTIAL that more warning be given.

KG2 is and always has been interested in ORGABNISED games, preferably squad-based, like the War Birds S3's and the TOD's,  but we also help out as best we can with events like BoB - usually, because of the dearth of organised Axis bomber units, in providing knowledge and an organisational core for the Axis side when they need such for their bombers in organised games.  We put in a LOT of time working on how to do bombing and plan bombing raids better and more historically, and we pass the basics of that on to others freely and gladly, with the hope that it will help others to enjoy this aspect of gaming WW2 air combat more.

This we have done, and we have behaved impeccably in the situation under discussion. When I became aware that there was indeed a game on,  rash though I feel the decision to run one under the circumstances was, I did attempt to contact my members and see if any could attend. None could at such short notice. Following that, as we had not been in frames 1 and 2, for the reasons stated,  I was startled to see that the frame 3 CO seemed to be expecting us to turn up for that, and so I posted as I did.

Kindly point out to me where, in any of all that, I or the rest of my unit have erred. If we are to be penalised for that, then I can only say that it refelects negatively only on those penalising us, not on our unit.  

Esme
CO, Kampfgeschwader 2 "Holzhammer"

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 01:34:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by sling322
Sunday TOD COs...plan on not having KG2 available for the TOD.

Esme, you obviously didnt read what was expected of your squad when you signed up for the TOD.  

You and your squad may fly as guests in the next few TODs and when you think you can get organized well enough and can understand what is expected of you, we will reconsider your re-activation then.


Your above remarks are deserving only of contempt, kindly retract them.

Esme
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 01:37:56 AM by Esme »

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2002, 01:43:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by daddog
Never hurts to put in your two cents dux. :)

The truth tends to get ummm twisted in some posts.  There was plenty of notice and the rules are quite clear as sling stated.

Dates for the BoB were known WEEKS ahead of time.  I post almost every Friday on events.  

Finally there is only one squad who was a "no-show" and this is the second time for them! Sling has been very patient. When I was running the TOD's any squad who did not show up "once" was gone. Sling gave them a second chance to get their act together.


Define "plenty" - notification during the period in which BoB was already under planning,  and we'd already registered for the game?  Hardly plenty.

Yes, dates for BoB WERE known WEEKS in advance, whilst those for TOD were NOT - that is precisely my point, thank you for making it for me, Daddog. So why wasnt the TOD announced weeks in advance so that the folks could make a rational choice as to whether they wanted to fly BoB, a TOD or both, rather than the TOD CMs essentially demanding that BoB participants fly a TOD whether or not they had the time or energy for it or not?

And as I have remarked elsewhere, KG2 has only entirely no-showed for a TOD once, to my knowledge.  I'd be interested to know when the other occasion is supposed to have been.

Esme

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2002, 01:49:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by daddog
I have had squads that gave me notice they can’t attend a frame or wanted to drop out for a period of time. That was fine. I have had new squads drop the ball and not show up. They contacted me and explained their error or the cause of the miss communication. Again that was fine. I have not had squads who blame the CM’s for their shortcomings and then not show up TWICE. Bit much IMHO.  

In any case it is over and delt with by sling. I just wanted it to be clear to everyone why he did what he did with my support.



What squad shortcomings? I notified folks as soon as it became clear to me that there was a TOD on that we could not attend due to the circumstances.

Daddog, I really dont understand why you and Sling are speaking to the situation like this - you are doing yourselves and the game a huge disservice. I urge you both to reconsider in the light of the facts and respond more rationally and fairly than you have thus far.

Esme

Offline Gremlin

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • http://www.webtreatz.com/tod/lognew.html
Re: KG2 and TOD
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2002, 10:26:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Esme
3. We were not keeping a close eye on the TOD forum.


Maybe you should.

Quote
Originally posted by Esme
7. We request that CMs give more notice of TODs. A single week is not really sufficient. Two would be much better, a month ideal.
[/B]


Grayarea posted on the 11th August that this TOD would begin on 25th.  This is two weeks if my math dont let me down.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 10:55:13 AM by Gremlin »

Offline Esme

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2002, 11:43:42 AM »
Noted, thank you - I must have missed that.  However, as I have said, I wasn't keeping a close eye on the TOD forum because I quite reasonably wasn't expecting any TOD's to be run until after TOD was over, and indeed, believe I'd heard somewhere that that was in fact going to be the case. Therefore I didn't feel a need to keep close watch on the forum again (note "again" - I usually DO keep close watch in here) until BoB was over.  BoB was taking up quite enough of my time already, thank you very much.

However, if I had realised earlier that a TOD was to be scheduled to run concurrently with BoB I would have spoken out against the foolishness of doing so.  As was, when I first realised we were being told about a TOD, it didnt immediately sink in that it was to run during the same week as BoB rather than after it. I simply hadnt the time to spare to pay much attention to anything other than BoB. As was, due to problems getting BoB together (particularly the lack of time between when the terrain was finished and the LW rosters were sorted out and when the game was actually staged), I didn't have the time to do as good a job on my part of BoB as I would have preferred to do.

If it was a case of us not turning up for no good reason, sure, I'd expect punitive action. But being punished because of injudicious scheduling and unrealistic expectations from the CMs is hardly fair.  

I'd also appreciate it if folks can drop the tendency to make comments about my reading rules, reading forums etc (because it really only shows that they arent paying attention to the core of the matter) and concentrate on the facts of the situation. We were put into an unecessarily difficult situation by thoughtless scheduling, and are now being criticised and penalised for it, despite having announced, as soon as we were aware of the situation, that we could not make this TOD.  If that's anyones definition of fair, I don't think I want to be flying in the same games as them.

Esme

Offline Nifty

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4400
KG2 and TOD
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2002, 01:16:56 PM »
Injudicious scheduling?  I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this.  I understand that you (and Wotan among others) were heavily involved with the BoB scenario.  However, there were plenty of TOD participants (in both the Friday and Sunday versions) who didn't even participate in one frame of the BoB.  The scheduling may have been inconvenient for your squad, and a few others, but cancelling the TODs would have been disappointing for everyone else that did show up for the TODs.  In my opinion, inconvenience is the lesser of the two evils.  Thoughtless scheduling?  I think I've shown otherwise.  I'll use my squad as an example.  In Invasion Sicily, I think 5 Mongrels got to fly in it and we had no TODs during the event (IIRC.)  That meant 10+ Mongrels didn't get to fly in a Special Event that weekend.  IMO, cancelling TODs for the 20-30% that got to fly in the scenario wasn't fair to those that didn't get to fly in an event at all.

No other TOD squad really complained about the scheduling.  Wotan admitted he didn't prepare his squad well for Frame 2 of the Friday night TOD (however, Frame 1 went extremely well for them), yet JG2 still showed up and put up a good fight.  (Wotan, I think you'd have been in trouble even with all your ducks in one place, there were at least 17 Mongrels in that area.)  So I think unrealistic expectations doesn't apply either, at least I disagree with you.  Other squads did both.  banana flew Friday night and then CMed the BoB.  He asked no more of you than he asked of himself or his squad (several Mongrels flew in both a TOD and BoB, 5 I think.)

As for the scheduling of TODs.  They are 3 weeks on, one week off, barring circumstances beyond our control (connection issues, major release delays).  This last TOD was in the same boat as BoB.  We weren't sure we'd be able to run it due to the Special Events Arena connection problems.  HTC took care of the issue, so we decided to go ahead with all of our normal events for August.
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.