Author Topic: Question. (Read 4776 times)

WldThing · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 2002, 02:31:54 PM »

Same point im trying to make....

And then the word "gamey" .... isnt this a game??

But i guess its just the way people play the game, that makes them who they are.

Wotan · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2002, 03:31:30 PM »

Yes

but none of those are beyond reality

We have a one button eng start up as a gameplay concession. They did this same thing in il2. In il2 people numerous facts that showed how gamey this is and they changed it.

You can fly how you ever want. But the eng off just takes advantage of what is already a gameplay concession.

To lighten a plane up they wouldnt carry max ammo loads. They would remove guns etc. As for the ah view system well thats another gameplay consession.

So is stick stirrind and all sorts of other stuff they folks pull. But fly how ya want that doesnt mean folks wont call like it is.

I dont fly in this event anyway so it doesnt matter to me.

hblair · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2002, 03:40:06 PM »

I guess that's a yes to my question? If so, shouldn't we also stop these other gamey actions? It would be next to impossible to do wouldn't it? That's why I chose to never open up the can of worms of "banning" engine shutoff.

Wotan · « **Reply #18 on:** October 16, 2002, 04:03:35 PM »

Yes and no

I would like personally to see a few things "adjusted" but I am not an advocate for change. I offer my opinion of "things" but its up to community as a whole to request change.

If I am the only that feels a certain way about certain things then thats on me.

But that still doesnt mean that turning your eng off in combat is not "gamey".

It is. But theres a whole host of other things that are as "gamey".

But my replies were specifically directed at 1 point. The fact that turning your eng off/on in combat with 1 button push is gamey. You, in trying to rationalize this, brought these other things up.

I never called for it to be changed I simply offered my opinion.

I dont do it. If other chose to, well thats on them. I just call it like I see it.

Lemme ask you this, since you "discovered" this do you use it? I noticed this a while back when I first came to ah. Certain guys would just hand me my arse and I would film it. Times when I thought I had set up an easy overshot the guy on my 6 would bleed e like he hit some air break. After few films I caught on. Tried it myself and was like gd thats how they do it.

After doing some reading I knew early on that this was an exploitation of a gameplay concession. I never brought it up on the board or made any mention of when it happened. I took it with a grain of salt.

But when I saw a thread asking "whats wrong with it" I figured I would offer an opinion.

I adjusted my flying to avoid knife fighting with certain planes like a 190s, 109s, f4us, la7s, jugs and 51s. These planes are the ones that I mostly saw in my films doing it.

As a matter it was a g10 that did it more often then any other.

Its up to the guys who fly here and ht to decide whether it needs changing.

hblair · « **Reply #19 on:** October 16, 2002, 04:19:21 PM »

I just started messing with the engine toggle a few months ago. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't.

The engine toggle is only useful in a 1 vs. 1. KOTH isn't a 1 vs. 1 unless you're one of the last remaning planes or fighting by yourself. Generally speaking, bleeding E or going into a scissors in KOTH is something you don't want to do. It's not a big gamey advantage.

Like I said, I'd like to see this corrected in the code.

-ammo- · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2002, 06:01:49 PM »

Shutting your engine off and on while performing ACM to gain an edge over your opponent is as gamey as carbombing was (HB and Nath did both)

. HTC fixed that dweeby carbombing thing, maybe they will fix this gamey engine thing as well.

I agree that in some form of measured competition like KOTH or WW it shouldn't be allowed.

Could be fixed by setting a time delay of 5-10 seconds after you kill your engine before you restart. ANd then to to allow for accidental shutoff's, just require a 2 or 3 key toggle for the engine.

Lizard3 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2002, 07:51:02 PM »

So how exactly DID WW2 pilots start there engines? There was no switch, someone outside the cockpit had to do it?

In real life the pilots used every advantage they could. Including firewalling there engine to produce smoke to fool the guy on there 6 that he had been hit and was going down. Also firing the guns producing smoke for the same. Galland specifically.

IIRC there is a certain tale about a P-47 pilot who shut his damaged engine down prior to ditching. After figuring out that he might be able to make it, he fired it back up and coasted back home.

I've heard other stories of pilots restarting there engines in flight after getting out of a bad situation and discovering it wasn't so bad. True, thats not in the middle of a fight to gain an advantage, but did not Corsair pilots drop gear to act as speed brakes?

Read a story just the other day about a 109 pilot who got his bird all smashed up. Flames, oil, parts missing. The jug pilot who tried to finish him off overshot and paid for it. The 109 pilot shot him down. After the 109 pilot ditched, he walked over to the Jug pilot and had a conversation. Not one word about how gamey that was.

Get a grip people.

Tumor · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2002, 04:33:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Lizard3
So how exactly DID WW2 pilots start there engines? There was no switch, someone outside the cockpit had to do it?

In real life the pilots used every advantage they could. Including firewalling there engine to produce smoke to fool the guy on there 6 that he had been hit and was going down. Also firing the guns producing smoke for the same. Galland specifically.

IIRC there is a certain tale about a P-47 pilot who shut his damaged engine down prior to ditching. After figuring out that he might be able to make it, he fired it back up and coasted back home.

I've heard other stories of pilots restarting there engines in flight after getting out of a bad situation and discovering it wasn't so bad. True, thats not in the middle of a fight to gain an advantage, but did not Corsair pilots drop gear to act as speed brakes?

Read a story just the other day about a 109 pilot who got his bird all smashed up. Flames, oil, parts missing. The jug pilot who tried to finish him off overshot and paid for it. The 109 pilot shot him down. After the 109 pilot ditched, he walked over to the Jug pilot and had a conversation. Not one word about how gamey that was.

Get a grip people.

Find one single reference to any WW2 pilot who shut his engine off in the middle of a dogfite at a very low altitude and I'll say it's not gamey. Otherwise.. ITS GAMEY!

hblair · « **Reply #23 on:** October 17, 2002, 07:11:34 AM »

OK, let's see if I've got this straight....

Ammo/Wotan/Tumor = Gamey

hblair/Lizard3/Wldthing = Not Gamey

-ammo- · « **Reply #24 on:** October 17, 2002, 09:34:32 AM »

thats a broad brush you are painting me with. I just put forth my opinion is all, which is what is nice about discussion boards.

I personally think that kind of exploitation of the *game* is just gamey, as defined in this discussion. Its also one of the reasons I withdrew from the 2 on 2 tournament. Its just me, I dont like it. I can do it as well, and with practice, I am sure I can use all those type of things to gain advantages on other folks in the arena. I dont impose my opinion on anyone else.

hblair · « **Reply #25 on:** October 17, 2002, 09:42:29 AM »

I was just kidding ammo.

I respect yours, wotans and all these other guys opinions as well. I do agree that the engine thing should be corrected in the code if possible.

Midnight · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2002, 12:56:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Lizard3
So how exactly DID WW2 pilots start there engines? There was no switch, someone outside the cockpit had to do it?

Depending on the aircraft. Some had internal electric starters, others required more external attention from the ground crew.

Quote

Originally posted by Lizard3
IIRC there is a certain tale about a P-47 pilot who shut his damaged engine down prior to ditching. After figuring out that he might be able to make it, he fired it back up and coasted back home.[/B]

IIRC, P-47 had internal starter with its own power source. It would be possible to restart the engine.

Quote

Originally posted by Lizard3
True, thats not in the middle of a fight to gain an advantage, but did not Corsair pilots drop gear to act as speed brakes?[/B]

They were designed for that type of use. Even if not origianally intended (I don't remember) they were adpated to that use because the forward opening motion and strength of the assembly allowed them to do it without braking.

---

Until recently (couple weeks maybe) I had never heard of 'playas' shutting down their engines to force overshoots. Now that I know they do it (Game dweebs) I can understand all those times I went flying past my targets thinking they ran out of fuel or got their engine killed, only to see them still flying minutes later. I always attributed it to HTCs game engine and network connection not working right and not showing the prop spinning or playing the engine sound from the other aircraft.

Any one that uses these 'gamey' tactics just looses a whole lot of respect from me. There is no piloting skill in exploiting a game consession to win a fight.

This should make for an interesting topic in the General Forum....

WldThing · « **Reply #27 on:** October 17, 2002, 02:50:40 PM »

Quote

Any one that uses these 'gamey' tactics

Hmm Midnight didnt u just confirm that some of the planes in WW2 could actually do all these things like the P47, so why would you call it "gamey" if it was done in R/L??

Wotan · « **Reply #28 on:** October 17, 2002, 04:34:04 PM »

No wildthing some planes could restart their eng, thats not the samething as confirming that they shut the eng off in combat

Even with the electric start it was still more involved then an on/off switch.

The corsair didnt frop its gear but the gear doors acted as an air break in dives. I have never read where they pulled the "top gun" move.

"I'll open the gear doors and watch umm fly right by".

Midnight · « **Reply #29 on:** October 17, 2002, 04:52:48 PM »

Because I HIGHLY doubt anyone would even consider doing it in the middle of combat. If I were about to be shot at, the last thing I would do is turn off my engine in hopes of making the attacker fly by. Even if I were successful in doing it, I would not want to worry about trying to instantly restart the engine 5 seconds later.

Anyone that says they would do it, I challenge to take up a real plane, shut down the engine, pull some sort of crazy maneuver (to simulate avoiding an attacking bandit) and then restart the engine again to continue flying.

Seeing as you fly the Mustang a lot, I am assuming you use this tactic in it as well. Bottom line, there is no way you would shut down a Merlin engine from full RPMs and Manifold pressure and then restart it again at full RPMs and Manifold pressure. No Way, No How.

Aside from blown transmission, busted piston seals, a bent crank shaft, backfiring in the exhaust headers and crushed booster vanes, the entire engine would be flooded out from too rich a fuel mixture. So, even if you hadn't destoryed the engine, it wouldn't start again until you got some more oxygen into the fuel/air mix.

-----

Here's the ignition sequence for the Mustang... Omit where stating cold engine, as we are obviously talking about restarting hot...

STARTING AND WARM-UP
Ignition switch OFF.

Have prop pulled through if it has been idle more than 2 hours.

Generator and battery switch ON, unless battery cart is being used, then battery switch OFF.

Throttle 1 inch open.

Mixture control in IDLE CUT-OFF.

Propeller control in INCREASED RPM.

Supercharger switch in AUTOMATIC.

Carburetor air control in RAM AIR.

Turn ignition switch to BOTH.

Fuel shut-off valve ON and fuel selector valve to Fuselage tank (if full), or Left Main tank if Fuselage tank not serviced.

Fuel booster pump on NORMAL and check for 8-12 pounds of fuel pressure.

Prime engine 3 to 4 shots when cold. 1 to 2 when warm.

See that prop is clear.

Lift guard on starter switch on pilot's switch panel and press switch to START. Caution in use of starter not to overheat.

As engine starts, move mixture control to AUTO RICH. If engine does not fire, after several turns, continue priming.
WARNING: When engine is not firing, mixture control should be in IDLE CUT-OFF.

Warm engine at approximately 1300 RPM. Check for constant oil pressure. If no oil pressure or low pressure after 30 seconds, shut off engine.

Check all instruments for proper readings.

Check hydraulic system operation by lowering and raising flaps.

Loading 800-850 pounds and unloading at 1050-1100 pounds.

Check communication equipment for proper operation.

Uncage all gyro instruments.

Check both LEFT and RIGHT MAIN and FUSELAGE fuel systems by rotating fuel selector valve with booster pump switch in EMERGENCY. Check for 14-19 lbs/sq. in. If drop tanks are installed, check fuel flow by rotating fuel selector control.

------

Here is the shutdown procedure

Booster pump OFF>

Oil and coolant shutters OPEN.

Run engine to 1500 RPM, set mixture control to IDLE CUT-OFF and move throttle fully open.

Turn ignition switch OFF after propeller stops turning.

Fuel shut-off valve OFF.

Turn all switches OFF.

Lock controls.