Author Topic: Corner speed (Read 416 times)

San · « **on:** October 15, 2002, 12:47:31 PM »

I am looking for the corner speeds of the following aircraft.

Zeke
109-G10
Hellcat
P-47
Spit V
La-7
N1K
Typh

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 15, 2002, 04:32:49 PM »

Check out SimHQ.com for some interesting articles on ACM. I found a good one on corner speeds in this post.

Optimal Reversals

I wish someone knew all the corner speeds for all the aircraft also, and had a webpage with all of them posted.

Jason

dtango · « **Reply #2 on:** October 15, 2002, 05:56:12 PM »

The difficulty with having a listing of corner speeds is that it varies with altitude for each a/c. That's part of the reason there isn't a nice "table" of corner speeds for all AH planes since it takes a quite a bit of testing and calculating to build one.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

San · « **Reply #3 on:** October 15, 2002, 07:11:09 PM »

I have spent the last few days scouring thew internet for this information. The article on combatsim looked interesting (I had already found that) but i could only find the em charts for the 109f,P-38,and P-51. I thought there might be a chart already put together for all the AH aircraft. I seem to remember a corner-speed chart from Warbirds that someone had done but I cant even find it now. Thanks for the help.

Drano · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2002, 11:14:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by dtango
The difficulty with having a listing of corner speeds is that it varies with altitude for each a/c. That's part of the reason there isn't a nice "table" of corner speeds for all AH planes since it takes a quite a bit of testing and calculating to build one.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

It also varies with configuration. Each plane can have a different corner speed due to weight and drag. Take gondolas or bombs and you've got extra weight and drag. You'll have a higher corner speed and therefore a slower turn rate and wider turning radius than if you hadn't taken them.

Fuel is another consideration. A fully fuelled plane is much heavier than one with a nearly empty tank and will consequently not turn as well.Remember fuel weight is all relative. 25% fuel in one type of plane doesn't necessarily equal 25% in another. Its all a tangled web. So many factors.

Flaps factor in too. While they provide drag thay also give lift. Planes with combat flaps can gain a smidge of turn rate in certain speed ranges on a notch of flaps. Flaps are a tightrope tho. Gotta have a good handle on how much is too much and when and when not to use em. Too much flap at a certain speed (yeah that'll be all different too) can be more of a hindrance than a help.

As far as a "table" goes, Badz has made numerous "EM diagrams" that explain corner velocity in detail--but each is good for only one configuration and altitude per plane. Maybe he'll pop in here with a link.

**edit** after checking out the link within a link above I see it leads to one of Badz' most excellent articles. That'll essplain it all better than I ever could.

Good luck figuring it all out.

Drano

dtango · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2002, 01:30:50 PM »

Drano hits upon the other points of the difficulty. Similar type of question came up in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum. If you're interested here is the link to the thread with an equation you can use if you want to try to figure out corner velocities yourself.

Corner Velocity Calculation

Just keep in mind what Drano said. It is only good for a given set of flight parameters. Change one of the variables in your flight parameters and your corner velocity is going to be different.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

San · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2002, 03:44:16 PM »

Hey thanks a lot for your post guys. I found this warbirds page if anyone is interested in it. Its the one I remebered from my Warbirds days. It sure would be nice to have this for Aces High.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6302/Perform/flight_test_department_2.htm

Beegerite · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2002, 07:45:47 PM »

Damn! I got diverted to this thread from another and would like to share a thought with you.

All of the information I have see in these threads relating to cornering speed which is an integral part of the aerodynamics of air combat is gathered from posts by various flight sim enthusiasts. I have yet to see one single post, chart or other information which to me doesn't sound like some wannabe aeronautical engineer wanting to believe that his sim of preference actually has it right. Aerodynamics is a pretty well defined science that's why one can get degrees in it. The question is how much real life science is actually modeled into a flight sim like FA, AH or WB???? I personally don't think that much is and this is the reason why the publishers are so closed mouthed about it. Would sure like to be proved wrong. In any case here's a link to a thread that came closest to explaining to me what is and what isn't modeled

http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/~ash/library/gameplay/flightmodel.html

Beeg

Quote

Originally posted by San
Hey thanks a lot for your post guys. I found this warbirds page if anyone is interested in it. Its the one I remebered from my Warbirds days. It sure would be nice to have this for Aces High.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6302/Perform/flight_test_department_2.htm

dtango · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2002, 11:07:46 PM »

Beeger:

Perhaps you didn't look a little more closely to all that is being said in all the above?

Aerodynamically Vcorner = Vstall * sqrt (struct limit g-load)

In AH we can use sqrt(6) since we have a pilot g-limit / blackout at 6-g's.

Vary weight, airframe configuration (e.g. flaps etc.), altitude and your corner velocity will be different so aerodynamically you have an essentially an infinite range of corner velocities that can be listed which would all be valid.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Beegerite · « **Reply #9 on:** November 19, 2002, 07:54:28 PM »

Tango;

Good equation. However, what I'm saying is that to come up with the magic number equal to Vcorner you have to have the actual numbers for the other variables and I have yet to see any information from any sim publisher which gives them to you. The assumption which is being made is that the aircraft in AH or for that matter any sim are in fact affected by these kinds of formulas. My suspicion is that they aren't. We talk about G loads but nobody knows what the lift capabilities of the airfoil are or for that matter what airfoils are being used. People can come up with true and correct aerodynamic definitions but they are totally moot if the flight model doesn't address them.

If you take a look at a real aircraft performance manual you will notice that for instance they will clearly define the flight tested stall speeds at different altitudes, temperatures and angles of bank. Where have we ever seen anything like that in any of these sims? We're not talking about things that users might post, I'm talking specifically about information provided by those who put the sim together.

Don't mind me, I'm just a little irritated by what I consider a screen of BS put out by publishers to make a lot of unknowing people think that "flying" a sim is equal in any way to flying a real aircraft.

Rgds
Beeg

Quote

Originally posted by dtango
Beeger:

Perhaps you didn't look a little more closely to all that is being said in all the above?

Aerodynamically Vcorner = Vstall * sqrt (struct limit g-load)

In AH we can use sqrt(6) since we have a pilot g-limit / blackout at 6-g's.

Vary weight, airframe configuration (e.g. flaps etc.), altitude and your corner velocity will be different so aerodynamically you have an essentially an infinite range of corner velocities that can be listed which would all be valid.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Blue Mako · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2002, 08:21:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Beegerite
Tango;

Good equation. However, what I'm saying is that to come up with the magic number equal to Vcorner you have to have the actual numbers for the other variables and I have yet to see any information from any sim publisher which gives them to you. The assumption which is being made is that the aircraft in AH or for that matter any sim are in fact affected by these kinds of formulas. My suspicion is that they aren't.

Beegerite,

I'm not a "wannabe aeronautical engineer", I actually hold an honours degree in Aeronautical Engineering from the University of Sydney. I also have had several hundred hours experience as a flight test engineer and I fly fixed wing aircraft in real life (soon to finish my PPL).

I have had a couple of discussions with HT online, as well as what I've read on the boards here, that indicate that the models AH use to approximate the behaviour of aircraft are pretty much inline with the methods I used when studying AE. The thing you need to understand is that no flight sim will ever truly be 100% accurate, flight is just too complex. AH is, however, a pretty darn good approximation.

The fact is, AH has to use the reasonably accurate models of aerodynamics, engine performance and atmosphere to even approach anything realistic. The fact that many of the flight manuals that are quoted from by readers of this board tally up to the performance of aircraft in AH is a good indication that high fidelity models have been used.

I'm sure there are areas where short cuts have been taken but my opinion is that they haven't taken many. Don't expect HTC to explain to all how they code their flight sim, would you give away trade secrets? It is ludicrous to think that they would detail what methods they have used, I don't think that means they don't have any...

And no, flying a sim does not equate to flying a real aircraft but it does do a good job of simulating it.

dtango · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2002, 01:58:28 AM »

Mako is right on.

Furthermore complexities regarding specifics such as types of airfoils used reveal themselves in general aircraft performance data and can be already embedded in aerodynamic coefficents. E.g. lift characteristics of a specific airfoil are embedded in the lift coefficient which can be derived from level-flight stall speed of a specific aircraft.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs