"Bomber has the control of the plane"

[Kweassa]

I remember playing B-17 Flying Fortress II: The Mighty Eighth, and the B-17s in that game had a distinct feature which is not present in AH.

 After the B-17s engage in a bomb run, the bomber crewman notifies the pilots that "the bomber has the control of the plane".

 I'm not sure what exactly this is, but it seems to me that its a sort of a primitive semi-auto pilot mechanism where the fine-tuning of the bomber flight path is in association with the Norden bomb Sight.

 For instance, I've never had any problems in B17II, where the bomber flight path is off the mark and I have trouble lining up exactly with the target. When at the Norden bomb sight, as the bomb sight moves and "marks" the target, the plane seems to correspond to this movement and automatically adjusts small differences in flight controls so the flight path is perfectly aligned to the target when the time comes to bomb.

 Currently in AH, there is absolutely no need for any of horizontal movements in the bomb sight at "mark" mode, because any horizontal movements would just mean that the plane is not aligned with the target. So there is a cumbersome need to move the sight vertically, see how much its off the target horizontally, and then change the flight path, and start calibrating the sight again.

 If the feature I have seen in B17II is really a historical one, how about implementing this in AH? When the bombers start a bomb run, and the pilot presses F6 and "U" to go into mark mode, pressing "Y" and marking the target would adjust the plane's flight path automatically so it is perfectly in line with the target when the time comes to release bombs - of course, as long as the flight path isn't too much off(we don't want "gamey" things such as bombers responding to targets miles away from the horizontal center, and dropping bombs accurately while turning)..  

 This, IMO, would make fine-tuning for accuracy of bombings much easier, not to mention save a bit of time in calibration.

[Fancy]

This is already modelled, sorry.  If you move your stick to the right or left while in your (calibrated) bobmsight, your plane will make small lateral adjustments.  Also note that when you hit F6 and enter the bombsight, the plane automatically goes into aut-level.  So essentially the same features are modelled in AH minus the status message.

btw, you don't mark the target, but a point on the groud.  This is only to indicate to your bomb computer your current airspeed.  I, for instance, calibrate about 45 seconds to a minute out from the target then make my heading adjustments.

Edit:  I keep a small piece of paper by my computer and when I ah on my final heading I use it to extend through my plane to make sure I am right on course.  That way any heading adjustments I may have to make would be small anyway.

[ccvi]

Originally posted by Fancy
btw, you don't mark the target, but a point on the groud.  This is only to indicate to your bomb computer your current airspeed.

Computer!?

I thought the Norden was a mechanical bomb sight.

The 234 had a computer

[frank3]

Originally posted by Fancy

Edit:  I keep a small piece of paper by my computer and when I ah on my final heading I use it to extend through my plane to make sure I am right on course.  That way any heading adjustments I may have to make would be small anyway.

I do the same thing fancy! gj

[Kweassa]

This is already modelled, sorry. If you move your stick to the right or left while in your (calibrated) bobmsight, your plane will make small lateral adjustments. Also note that when you hit F6 and enter the bombsight, the plane automatically goes into aut-level. So essentially the same features are modelled in AH minus the status message.

 You're not getting what I'm saying.

 What you are talking about is, marking the target(or airspeed, or whatever you would call it), ending the calibration procedure, and then making heading adjustments. That's not the feature I have described.

 "The bomber has control", if it were in AH, would be pressing "U" to enter calibration mode, finding the target of your choice, pressing "Y" to mark it.. and WHILE pressing "Y" down the plane would adjust its course automatically so it is in alignment in heading with the target marked. That's how supposedly real Norden sights worked.

 Currently, people prefer to mark at a point directly underneath them to measure speed because they know moving the sight in calibration mode is useless.

 Any horizontal movement just means you are off the line, and vertical movements people do not prefer, because they think it is less accurate than directly underneath.  After calibration process is finished, and the sight is all green "ready to drop", how do you adjust your heading here? Usually, people prefer going external and fine tuning the flight path.

 It is during this flight path adjustments, which takes far too much time, that the bombers are totally helpless.

 .....

 If the Norden sight is as it should be, all this cumbersome adjustments should be finished with the marking process. The bomb sight marker moved in all directions because real bombers would find the target near the horizon, move the sight on the target itself to judge/adjust BOTH speed AND heading.

 If the "mark(Y)" process would allow planes to adjust flight path automatically, that would be what I would call "bomber has control of the plane"... so, the new bombing method would be:

 1) reduce speed/maintain steady speed
 2) open bomb bay doors
 3) go to bombsight
 4) press "U"
 5) find target and place marker
 6) press "Y" down (while measuring speed, the plane also adjusts flight path)
 7) press "U" again
 8) ready to drop

 ...

 No flight path adjustment needed anywhere, where the pilot has to jump in and out of F6 view, sometimes go to external and line the plane up the target.

[Fancy]

Here's what I do before reaching target.

1.) climb to desired alt.
2.) level and adjust heading (using that little scrap of paper)
3.) Open doors (so that speed is stabilized)
4.) Wait and waitch the skies as I approach target.
5.) Press U
6.) Slew crosshairs forward  then pick a spot and mark for 15 seconds
7.) Press U
8.) MOVE MY STICK FROM LEFT TO RIGHT TO ALIGN MYSELF WITH TARGET WHILE STILL IN BOMBSIGHT.
9.) Drop bombs
10.) ...
11.) Profit

I think you're having problems with #8.  I imagine you know it exists but that you calibration approach is so far off that you need to make bigger adjustments than it will allow for.  Solution:  Use the scrap like I do when you make your last course adjustment.  I never have to make radical adjustments after that.  In fact, all my adjustments thereafter are the fine-tuning sort that are made in the sight.  (I'm sorry, but I don't understand whether or not you are even aware of the fact that you can make course adjustments from the bombsight.)   The problem I see with marking the actual target is that if you are marking something that is well ahead of you, you WILL be less accurate because the further ahead you are looking the more fore-shortened everything is.  I actually prefer calibrating quite early and keeping my eyes peeled until I get close or, if there are no fighters lurking about, I'll do another calibration.

I understand that the ACTUAL Norden bombsight made the course adjustments for you, but in the game these adjustments take mere seconds.  If you are fussing around with course OUTSIDE of the bombsight then you are destabilizing your airspeed which will make for a less accurate drop.  What I am saying is that the Norden adjustments ARE modelled, it's just that YOU have to make them, not the bomb computer.  And to be honest I wouldn't want them modelled for the reason that you cited:  I'd have to pay attention to two axes instead of just one.

[bj229r]

Fancy..EVERYTIME i even BREATHE on rudder while in F6 mode, to get better lined up, bombs fall short by 2-3 hangar lengths (im talkin about REAL minor adjustments)...if there isnt enough time to re-cal for 5 seconds after a minor adjustment....pick a target further away or go around again, likely ensuring a swarm of LA7's by the time I return

[Fancy]

Originally posted by bj229r
Fancy..EVERYTIME i even BREATHE on rudder while in F6 mode, to get better lined up, bombs fall short by 2-3 hangar lengths (im talkin about REAL minor adjustments)...if there isnt enough time to re-cal for 5 seconds after a minor adjustment....pick a target further away or go around again, likely ensuring a swarm of LA7's by the time I return

You don't adjust the RUDDER, you adjust heading (It's a low-pitch turn) and you don't do it by twisting the stick (or whatever you do to manipulate rudder) but simply by pushing the stick either left or right the way you normally would do to roll a plane.

[Frstrm]

if you calibrate while at 75-80% throttle...
then after doing #8 (aligning on target while in sight)...
Throttle up to 100% to increase alt while in sight, and throttle below 80% to drop alt while in site.

Do #8, then once lined up, use throttle to adjust your alt till it = the drop alt again...

You are then back in calibration and can drop on target...

Despite what others have said in other post, it works.

If your alt <> drop alt by a couple of meters then you will hit short/long of hangers (target).

Other thing to watch for, if your not droping all your eggs in one go, then when you do your first release your alt will suddenly jump due to the loss of weight.  be prepared for it and compensate for the next target.

[Kweassa]

.. and once again this is one frickin' serious claim against the way HTC modelled bombing.

 Prove it.

 Give us a film.

 Since it's not something like cheat accusations and can be done arbitrarily as you suggest, it'd be quite easy for you to prove, won't it?

[Fancy]

Originally posted by Kweassa
.. and once again this is one frickin' serious claim against the way HTC modelled bombing.

 Prove it.

 Give us a film.

 Since it's not something like cheat accusations and can be done arbitrarily as you suggest, it'd be quite easy for you to prove, won't it?

Prove what exactly Kweassa?  That I can make course adjustments in scope?  How would a film prove that?

[Frstrm]

no, he is talking about a claim of mine....

I can take a b26, calibrate (just like your 1-8) hit a hanger, extend, do a radical 180 (just enough not to lose the formation) come back and hit another target without having to recalibrate.

My claim, is that once calibrated, all you have to do is make sure that your alt = drop alt. when you release.  you can make all the speed adjustments, bomb alignments you want, up until the point of release.

As long as your alt = drop alt, you'll hit what is in your cross hair.

I will work on a film the first chance I get, when I can (in the MA) make this run for you without to much fighter interference to prove my claim...

[Fancy]

If true, this would support Kweassa's claim that the bombing system is porked.  Velocity has a lot to do with the trajectory of bombs.  Two bombers at the same altitude but at different speeds that drop at the same time should hit different places.