Author Topic: An End to the Myth  (Read 515 times)

Offline Midnight

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An End to the Myth
« on: October 28, 2002, 09:10:09 PM »
After reading all the posts about engine toggle and gliding, I decided to do some testing of my own. The results show that there is no turn advantage gained by toggling engine on and off, or leaving it off. Gliding time is not effected by engine on or off, only by engine RPM.

http://webpages.charter.net/davidlj/zips/flighttest.zip

There are two films attached in the zip. All testing done in P-51D, 50% fuel load at test start.
1. glidetest.ahf
2. turntest.ahf

Glide Test Results - Test parameters
Start at 6000 feet ASL, 250 MPH TAS
Engage Auto-pilot level
End at 2000 feet ASL

1. 3000 RPM, NO ENGINE: Glide time 1:54.34
2. Min RPM, NO ENGINE:    Glide time 4:03.17
3. 3000 RPM, IDLE             Glide time 1.54.16
4. Min RPM, IDLE                Glide time 4:10.25

(I attribute the extra glide time on the last test to slightly less fuel weight in the tanks)

Basically, it seems that regardless of engine running or not, the glide time is only effected by the RPMs.

-----

Turn Test Results - Test parameters
Start at 250 TAS
Bank Right 90 degrees
Execute best turn 360 degrees
Level the wings

1. 3000 RPM, WEP: Turn time 22 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
2. 3000 RPM, NO ENGINE: Turn time 21 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
3. 3000 RPM, TOGGLE ENGINE: Turn time 21 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
4. 3000 RPM WEP: Turn time 18.5 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH

(The last turn test was started approximately 3000 feet ASL, as compared to the first test which started at 6000 feet ASL. The difference in altitude may have contributed to the performance difference)

---

HiTech I also found a bug while doing this test:

Bug report: With throttle postion set to full, toggle on WEP. Shut down engine. Even with engine shut down, the temperature will rise to elevated WEP temperatures once the engine is actually restarted.

Test parameter to duplicate:
1. Plane on runway
2. Start Engine, runat idle
3. Let temp rise to normal (75C)
4. Throttle to Full and Engage WEP
5. Shut down Engine (leave Throttle at maximum position)
6. Wait 5 minutes

(During the wait, you will see the engine temperature rising even though the engine is turned off.

Once the engine is restarted, it goes to 120C like it would if the engine had actually been running at WEP rather than being turned off.

http://webpages.charter.net/davidlj/zips/enginewep.zip
« Last Edit: October 28, 2002, 09:13:58 PM by Midnight »

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2002, 11:00:07 PM »
what do they call that where you take  a suger pill but you get better any way through the power of your mind? A supository?

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2002, 11:08:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
what do they call that where you take  a suger pill but you get better any way through the power of your mind? A supository?


It's called a Placebo.

As to the rise in temperature after shutdown: It seems that HTC modeled normal heat-soaking. All water cooled engines get hotter after shut down, because the coolant sits in the hot block and heads without being circulated. It should cool down quickly though after restart. If not, then it's a bug. Try it with an air- cooled engine and see if does it too. It should not, as high-speed airflow over a radial engine after shutdown brings cylinderhead temps down rapidly.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline ra

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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2002, 07:58:02 AM »
<<>>

What possible use could this have in a sim??  It's probably just a glitch.  For example, the Ju-88 has no WEP, but if you hit the WEP button your engines will begin to overheat.

ra

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2002, 08:04:01 AM »
a water cooled engine that has been shut down hot will continue to rise in temp because the water is not circulated.   When the engine is started it should cool rapidly as the water pump circulates the cooler radiator water thru the block.
lazs

Offline Midnight

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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2002, 08:41:12 AM »
It's a bug.

It has nothing to do with heat soaking

If you shut the engine down and WEP is not on, it cools off, it doesn't keep heating up.

If you shut the engine down and WEP is on (throttle left at 100% and WEP toggled on) then the engine temperature increases.

It's a minor bug, but not the main topic of this post.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2002, 08:46:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
<<>>

What possible use could this have in a sim??  It's probably just a glitch.  For example, the Ju-88 has no WEP, but if you hit the WEP button your engines will begin to overheat.

ra


Because IT IS a sim.

Ju 88 engines always run hot during climbout. No one in the real world climbs out at full military power. There simply is not enough airflow to keep the engines within operating temperature limits. For this reason, when climbing, cowl flaps and cooler doors are always open.

That WEP bug may be genuine, but it's no big issue. If HTC modeled everything, a lot of guys would be killing engines by exceeding temp limits on climbout. As it is, they have elected to minimize the complexity of engine operation, not having cowl flaps, oil cooler or radiator doors to set and adjust.

Some aircraft, such as the P-51 and later models of the P-38 had automated systems that controlled cooler (and intercoolers) and radiator doors. Most did not. Ever see a takeoff checklist for a vintage warbird? It's nothing like HTC where you simply start the engine and firewall the throttle. Little details like getting temps up into operating limits, mag checks, prop governor checks and the like are not included here. Personally, I would like to see them modeled, as it would provide a great deal of "real feel". Yet, the effect on game play would be substantial and many would find it a giant pain in the neck.

Here's an example of what is involved in getting a P-40B off of the ground:

2. Ensure that the total weight and distribution of the load are in accordance with the weight sheet summary and ascertain that the aeroplane is in all other respects fit for flight.


PRELIMINARIES
3. Before starting the engine, check the following:

(i) That the ignition switches are OFF;

(ii) That undercarriage, tail wheel, and flap selectors are in NEUTRAL;

(iii) That constant speed toggle switch on control panel is ON; i.e., in "Automatic Control".

(iv) That wheel brakes are ON

(v) Switch on main battery switch and check undercarriage, tail wheel and flap indicator

(vi) Turn on fuel and check fuel tanks for contents

(vii) Check controls for free movement.


STARTING ENGINE AND WARMING UP
Note: For main engine details see Handbooks and paragraph 27 of these Notes.

4. (i) If engine has been standing, turn over by hand.

(ii) Turn carburetor air to "COLD", radiator shutters to "SHUT".

(iii) C.P. control to 2800 r.p.m.

(iv) Throttle to give approximately 800 r.p.m.

(v) Mixture control to idle cut-off. (See note)

(vi) Wobble pump to 4 lbs. pressure.

(vii) Prime engine with two to four strokes

(viii) Mixture control to FULL RICH

(ix) Switch ON

(x) Push heel on starter pedal to energize starter.

(xi) When starter has reached sufficient speed, push down toe of starter pedal to engage.

Note:- Do not increase fuel pressure above 4 lbs. with the mixture control out of the idle cut-out position. If necessary, prime the engine to keep it from stalling, as pumping the throttle does not prime the engine.


TESTING ENGINE AND INSTALLATION
5. (i) Warm up at 800 to 1000 r.p.m.

(ii) Minimum oil temperature before running up over 40°C. - Maximum 85°C.

(iii) Oil pressure - 60 to 80 lbs.

(iv) Radiator temperature for running up - 80°C.

(v) Whilst warming up the engine, check the operation of the flaps.

(vi) Set propeller switch to "manual selective".

(vii) Check the functioning of the engine and magnetos at 2200 r.p.m. and 26 in. Hg. (65 Cm.Hg.)

Note:- Care must be taken to see that the tail does not lift when 1800 r.p.m. is exceeded, and it is advisable to have somebody holding this down whilst running up.

(viii) Reset propeller switch to "automatic" position and check C.P. controls.


TAXIING
6. Owing to the steerable tail wheel, brakes are not necessary in normal circumstances. The view ahead is average and the machine is readily controllable.

If the engine is kept ticking over for any period of time, it should be cleared by being run up against the brakes prior to take-off.


ACTIONS PRIOR TO TAKE-OFF
7. Prior to actual take-off, check the following points by means of some suitable reminder, such as "T" - "M" - "P" "FLAPS" - "RADIATOR"

(i) "T" - trimming tab controls for rudder and elevator should both be in neutral as shown by the marks on the indicators.

(ii) "M" - mixture control should be at full rich.

Note:- It should be at auto-rich if aeroplane is above 3500 feet.

(iii) "P" - constant speed control should be set to give 3000 revs, and check that toggle switch is in the UP (automatic) position.

(iv) "FLAPS" - may be used up to 20° for take-off if required, although the advantage of so doing is very small. See paragraph 1 (iii).

(v) "RADIATOR" - position for this will be dependent on the outside air temperature.


TAKE-OFF
8. The aircraft is very easy to take-off and shows scarcely any inclination to swing, although a little right rudder may be needed. As the Allison engine has a particularly quick pick-up, the opening of the throttle must be done slowly and care must be taken to ensure that the specified maximum manifold pressure of 41 in. Hg (104 Cm.Hg. on French instruments) is not exceeded. See para. 27 for full engine take-off limitations.


ACTIONS AFTER TAKE-OFF
9. (i) Once clear of the ground, raise the undercarriage and tail wheel by pressing the release knob on the end of the undercarriage selector lever, bringing the lever up to the undercarriage "UP" position, and pressing the thumb operating switch on the top of the control column. [DF: Erik says that on the AVG Tomahawks the button on top of the stick was replaced by a toggle below the pistol grip.] This operation is rather slow and whilst the undercarriage is going up -

(ii) reduce the boost pressure to 35 in. Hg. and reduce revs to 2600, and

(iii) maintain a flying speed of approximately 140 m.p.h.

(iv) When the indicator shows that the undercarriage and tail wheel are finally up, check that they are locked into position by operating the emergency hand pump, and if it is solid then the undercarriage and tail wheel are full retracted. Return undercarriage selector lever to neutral position, and

(v) If lowered, raise the flaps by selecting the "Up" position on the flap selector lever, and press the thumb operating switch on the control column. When the flaps are up return the lever to neutral.

(vi) Set mixture control to automatic rich.

Not simple at all is it?

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline krazyhorse

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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2002, 08:58:37 AM »
way to much time on your hands dude  woa:D

Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2002, 09:36:37 AM »
Midnight,

Thanks for doing the obvious testing. :cool:

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2002, 09:43:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by krazyhorse
way to much time on your hands dude  woa:D


Cut and paste, takes only a minute.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2002, 12:55:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
a water cooled engine that has been shut down hot will continue to rise in temp because the water is not circulated.   When the engine is started it should cool rapidly as the water pump circulates the cooler radiator water thru the block.
lazs


Unless you have a couple hundred mph of air blowing through the radiator.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2002, 01:09:01 PM »
And then you have what? A cool radiator? :rolleyes:

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2002, 01:26:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
And then you have what? A cool radiator? :rolleyes:


Exactly, without the waterpump turning, no coolant is circulated.

I used to have a Renault R5 years ago. The fan switch sending unit was installed in the head and was wired directly to power. So, whenever you shut off the engine, within two minutes the fan would begin running. This produced a cool radiator, but that engine was still heat-soaking.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2002, 04:12:42 PM »
Quote
1. 3000 RPM, WEP: Turn time 22 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
2. 3000 RPM, NO ENGINE: Turn time 21 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
3. 3000 RPM, TOGGLE ENGINE: Turn time 21 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH
4. 3000 RPM WEP: Turn time 18.5 seconds, exit turn at 200 MPH


 How can a turned off engine sustain 3000 rpm by windmilling alone?? :eek:

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2002, 04:40:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
And then you have what? A cool radiator? :rolleyes:


Thermosyphoning will reduce heat soak effects.

Add in a couple hundred mph breeze and I bet you could keep the motor nice and cool.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2002, 04:44:39 PM by funkedup »