Author Topic: An End to the Myth  (Read 517 times)

Offline Creamo

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An End to the Myth
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2002, 05:36:12 PM »
As long as you believe it I guess.

Offline Samm

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Re: An End to the Myth
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2002, 05:49:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight

1. 3000 RPM, NO ENGINE: Glide time 1:54.34
2. Min RPM, NO ENGINE:    Glide time 4:03.17
3. 3000 RPM, IDLE             Glide time 1.54.16
4. Min RPM, IDLE                Glide time 4:10.25


Is this thing on,.. testing, testing

Ehem.

I TOLD YOU SO !

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2002, 06:00:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
As long as you believe it I guess.


No need to believe in it - the turbo cooler in my car works on this principle, so I get to experience it every day.

Offline Fangio

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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2002, 06:04:45 PM »
My car does not run hot, yet no coolant flows through a radiator, no water pump ever turns and no coolant sits in the block or heads when it has been shut off. It also does not get hotter after shut down, instead it actually cools off very quickly. Oh yea.... there are many aircraft engines that operate exactly like it!

Fang
JG26

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2002, 07:17:04 PM »
Midnight for doing real research.

good job, interesting find.

eskimo

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2002, 08:23:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup


No need to believe in it - the turbo cooler in my car works on this principle, so I get to experience it every day.


This is an air to air intercooler, not an air to fluid radiator. Any heat transfer via the coolant would likely not keep pace with normal heat radiation cooling thru the total area of the engine block and heads. Irrespective, the engine temp will rise on shutdown as any simple temperature gauge will indicate.

Most high end racing vehicles use a separate, quick disconnect type cooling system to force coolant through the block and heads to prevent any warpage and seal deterioration associated with heat soaking. As soon as the engine is shut down, the external system is connected.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2002, 09:11:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing


This is an air to air intercooler, not an air to fluid radiator.


No it's not.  There is a coolant loop for the turbo itself, plus an air to air intercooler.  The coolant loop is designed so that it will thermosyphon after the car is shut down.  I'll try to find an online diagram for you, it's a pretty cool system.

And I never suggested a parked car would not undergo some heat soak.  But thermosyphoning can reduce it significantly if you have some forced cooling or a 200 mph breeze.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2002, 09:20:37 PM by funkedup »

Offline poopster

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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2002, 09:28:40 PM »
Pretty much accepted terms are intracooled and aftercooled. Most Medium and Heavy duty trucks use both. With the purpose of cooling the air out of the turbocharger ie: denser air before entering the cylinders. One using engine coolant, the other a radiator mounted side by side or in front of the coolant radiator.

Nothing to do with engine cooling.

So to in conclusion.

It makes hot air not.....

Have a couple plugged into this board :D

Wide have you seen the Roaring Glory tape on the P40 ?? The difference in start sequences with that and the rest of the Warbirds really shows how "dated" it was even then. Good tape. Actually I like all the Roaring Glory tapes. The ones with Jeff Ethell are really the best.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2002, 09:33:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by poopster
Pretty much accepted terms are intracooled and aftercooled. Most Medium and Heavy duty trucks use both. With the purpose of cooling the air out of the turbocharger ie: denser air before entering the cylinders. One using engine coolant, the other a radiator mounted side by side or in front of the coolant radiator.

Nothing to do with engine cooling.


Poop, not on my car.  There is coolant supply and return to the turbo body, for the purpose of cooling the bearings and oil in the turbo.

The only charge cooling on my car is an air-to-air heat exchanger between the compressor outlet and the throttle body.

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2002, 12:50:19 AM »
Quote
Exactly, without the waterpump turning, no coolant is circulated.


@BEGIN(sarcasm)

And this is why all of the US nuclear submarines suffer meltdowns when running their reactors at low power with the coolant pumps turned off.

Oh, wait -- that's standard practice for low-speed silent running. I guess that pressure differential between the hot and cold side of the reactor and condenser are enough to keep the circulation going.

@END(sarcasm)

Seriously, though, a liquid cooling system will get some cooling effect from both the pressure-generated circulation and from heat transmission through the working fluid. However, for most automobile and aircraft engines, the fundamental limits of design (ships don't normally have weight or size as a major consideration), the amount of cooling from passive heat transfer, so you will get a heat spike when the cooling system shuts down.

In point of fact, though, the heat spike is bogus. Think about it for a moment; at a constant temperature, the engine is producing X amount of waste heat, and the cooling system is dissipating the same amount of waste heat. You shut the engine off, and it's no longer producing waste heat; it's not going to get any hotter, it's just going to cool down. The coolant, however, which during operation has to be at a lower temperature than the engine in order for it to be able to remove the waste heat from the engine, will become hotter, as it absorbs heat from the engine but isn't being pumped to the radiator to dissipate that heat.

The reason that the 'engine' temperature rises when you turn off the engine is that it's not the engine temperature you are seeing; it's the coolant temperature.

A liquid-cooled engine relies on the coolant remaining a liquid; this is why a coolant leak is such an urgent problem. As the temperature of the coolant goes up, more of it boils, creating increased pressure in the coolant system, which raises the boiling point of the coolant, keeping it from boiling. When the pressure exceeds the system tolerance (the spring holding the pressure vent valve on the radiator in a car gets forced open) or the system is punctured, the loss of pressure causes part of the coolant to flash-boil. Steam, because it is much less dense, has a much more limited ability to cool the engine, and the temperature rises much more quickly, until it reaches a point at which the engine is damaged and fails.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2002, 12:51:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by poopster

Wide have you seen the Roaring Glory tape on the P40 ?? The difference in start sequences with that and the rest of the Warbirds really shows how "dated" it was even then. Good tape. Actually I like all the Roaring Glory tapes. The ones with Jeff Ethell are really the best.


I haven't seen that tape, but would certainly enjoy doing so.

I have experience with the R-2800, R-2600 and R-1820 engines.

R-2800s require careful use of the primer or it simply won't light off, or you can get backfires and stack fires. Takes some practice to get proficient at it.

The R-2600 is somewhat less finicky.

Of the three, the R-1820 is the easiest to get started (steady prime) and reliable like brick and mortar.

I suspect that Funkedup has a Subaru WRX. The purpose of the water-cooled turbo is to prevent coking of the bearings after a hot shutdown. In the early days of car turbo installations, it was always a good idea to idle the engine for a few minutes to cool down the turbo prior to shutdown. God knows, I've replaced a few when the bearings went, which always destroys the turbo oil seals. Then the turbo becomes little more than an oil pump. I own a 2002 WRX wagon. My previous turbo cars included a 1980 Buick Regal T-type, a 1982 Renault Fuego Turbo, a 1985 Nissan 300ZX Turbo and my favorite road terror, a 1986 Shelby GLH-S. Later, I replaced the 2.2 liter, intercooled 175 HP GLH-S motor with the 2.5 liter, 217 HP engine from a wrecked Shelby CRX. 0-60 in about 5.2 seconds, 152 mph clothed in a Dodge 4 dr. Omni body. A genuine sleeper. Tremendous torque steer though. You develop forearms like Popeye.

Back when the GLH-S was introduced to the press, it was raced against a race prepared 1965 Shelby GT-350 at Willow Springs raceway. The dang 4 banger Omni on steroids turned significantly faster lap times than the 350 hp GT-350. And, that was with just 175 hp. With 217 hp on tap, my little black monster was a whole lot quicker. However, the GLH-S was unreliable in the extreme. Even as delivered it suffered from blown head gaskets and failed fuel pumps. When we did the engine swap, it had already been assigned weekend duty only. The engine swap was a nightmare. But that's another story.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2002, 01:16:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

As to the rise in temperature after shutdown: It seems that HTC modeled normal heat-soaking. All water cooled engines get hotter after shut down, because the coolant sits in the hot block and heads without being circulated.
My regards,

Widewing


Isn't that just the coolant getting hotter because it's no longer moving?
sand

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2002, 02:23:12 AM »
Er.. um..

 How can a turned off engine sustain 3000 rpm by windmilling  alone??

 ...

 anyone care to explain it for the laymen? :o

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2002, 03:06:10 PM »
Widewing, that GLH sounds awesome!  Did it have an open diff?  Must have been a handful.

I didn't know you had a WRX too.  I love mine, just hope it doesn't explode.

I couldn't find a diagram for the turbo cooling arrangement though.  I guess I'll have to order the shop manuals.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2002, 03:08:38 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2002, 03:07:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Er.. um..

 How can a turned off engine sustain 3000 rpm by windmilling  alone??

 ...

 anyone care to explain it for the laymen? :o


250 mph breeze will turn a windmill pretty darn fast.  Unless the blades are feathered, there is more than enough power in the "wind" to keep that thing turning.