Author Topic: ShVAK versus Mausers (Read 1627 times)

RAM · « **on:** June 05, 2000, 09:28:00 PM »

Hehe this is not what you are thinking it is!!!

Well after some "happenings" in the MA tonight versus a La5 I am asking myself, as I dont know much about them, how did the 20mm ShVAK cannon perform...can you pliz give me some data on it? (Muzzle vel., RoF, Weight and type of rounds,etc).And if you have some comparisons between ShVAK and Mauser MG151/20, that would be great,too.

I dont know a lot about russian weapons,so if you have some data on them It would be helpful.

Thanks on advance.

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Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-05-2000).]

Rendar · « **Reply #1 on:** June 05, 2000, 10:13:00 PM »

I heard that the ShVAK 20mm was significantly more powerful than the other 20mm cannons. I think the round is about 20% heavier in the ShVAK.

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Rendar

JENG · « **Reply #2 on:** June 05, 2000, 10:27:00 PM »

Mmmm yeah... someone should dig up the old pic Pyro posted (you know the one with the different shelltypes of cannons)... that should explain it a bit (if I recall correctly the Mausers 20mm round was pretty tiny in comparison to the SHVAK round

)

Bee out

JENG · « **Reply #3 on:** June 05, 2000, 10:38:00 PM »

Now here it is

...

From left to right...

1- US .30-06
2- German 7.9mm
3- Russian 12.7mm
4- US 50 Cal
5- German MG 131 13mm
6- German MG 151 15mm
7- German MG151/20 20mm
8- British Hispano 20mm
9- Russian VYa 23mm
10- German MK 108 30mm
11- German MK 103 30mm
12- German BK 37 37mm

You see the difference between the MG151/20 and Russian VYa 23mm round

... pretty big.. also look difference Hispano vs Mauser round.

Don't know bout the ROF, weight of round, mussle velocity of the SVHAK cannon tho, maybe ask leonid or verm bout that.

Bee out once again

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 06-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 06-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 06-05-2000).]

fdiron · « **Reply #4 on:** June 05, 2000, 11:11:00 PM »

Wow, that Russian 23mm is huge. That explains its poor firing trajectory. Heres an interesting fact about U.S. 50 cal ammo- After WW2, a military survey was done on U.S. air to air ammo types. They found out that only the Armor Piercing Inciendiary 50 cal ammo fired was truly effective at destroying enemy aircraft. Also they found that the API round was the only 50cal round likely to set fire to fuel tanks and ammo bays in enemy aircraft. The other types of 50 cal ammo just shredded enemy a/c. Also, banking groups of weapons together, such as 4,6,or 8 guns of similar calibere (50), was much more effective than different types of guns, such as the Zero, which had 2 machine guns and 2 cannons. All my information was collected from a book called "Dirty little secrets of World War II".

funked · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2000, 11:39:00 PM »

Huge doesn't make for a poor trajectory. Ballistics on the 75mm panzer gun are pretty good, that's a huge shell too.

VYa actually should have better ballistics than the M2 12.7mm. It's got a better ratio of mass to cross sectional area and higher muzzle velocity too.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-05-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #6 on:** June 05, 2000, 11:42:00 PM »

RAM Look here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

ShVAK looks a little better than MG 151/20 but pretty similar other than the weight of the gun.

Nashwan · « **Reply #7 on:** June 05, 2000, 11:50:00 PM »

MG 151/20 20 x 82 (115 g) 740 rpm 710 m/s
MG 151/20 20 x 82 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
ShVAK 20 x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm 800 m/s
Hispano Mk.II 20 x 110 (130 g) 600 rpm 880 m/s
From http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html
Similar kinetic energy to the Mauser but slightly higher ROF.

funked · « **Reply #8 on:** June 05, 2000, 11:51:00 PM »

nm

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-05-2000).]

juzz · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2000, 12:42:00 AM »

2. Is British .303in iirc, not German 7.92mm.

Ghosth · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2000, 12:47:00 AM »

All very nice but where is the Japanese 20mm type 99 shell?
Also the later ver type 2?

flakbait · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2000, 02:37:00 AM »

Specs on the ShVAK:

Caliber: 20mm
Projectile weight: 96 grams [1481.2 grains]
Muzzle velocity: 790-820m/sec [2591-2689 ft/sec]
Rate of Fire: 750-820 rpm
Barrel length: 1.25m [4.1 feet]

I got this from: http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/gun-shvak20.html

Flakbait
"Disorder came from order, fear came from courage, weakness came from strength."
Sun Tzu: The Art of War

Vermillion · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2000, 07:27:00 AM »

The VYa 23mm, which was the main cannon on the IL-2 and IL-10 Stormvich (sp?) series is more comparable to the German 30mm's , than the 20mm guns.

VYa: 23mm x 152B (200 g) 500 rpm 905 m/s
MK108: 30mm x 90RB (312 g) 600 rpm 505 m/s

Slower rate of fire, but with a very high muzzle velocity, and a respectable shell size, it should be much easier to hit with.

Each VYa 23mm shell will have the equivalent hitting power of two 20mm shells, and have just as flat a trajectory (but only 2/3rds the rate of fire)

Some other very interesting big cannons are the NS series that was mounted on the Yak-9T, Yak-9K, and the Yak-9UT. I also posted the stats of the German Mk103 high velocity 30mm, BK5 50mm cannon (used on Me410's), and the American 37mm (used in P-39's and P-63's) for comparison.

NS-23: 23mm x 115 (200 g) 550 rpm 690 m/s
NS-37: 37mm x 195 (735 g) 250 rpm 900 m/s
NS-45: 45mm x 182 (1065 g) 250 rpm 850 m/s

MK 103: 30mm x 184B (330 g) 420 rpm 860 m/s
BK 5: 50mm x 419R (1540 g) 50 rpm 920 m/s
M4 (P-39): 37mm x 145R (608 g) 140 rpm 610 m/s

Obviously the NS-23 isn't as good as the VYa 23 mm, but it was much lighter so it could be mounted in more fighters. But it is still a very respectable cannon.

Now the NS-37, and NS-45 are two very scary cannons. Both shoot very large shells at a high muzzle velocity. Even the rate of fire is respectable when compared to the US 37mm or the German 50mm.

Just compare the Russian 37mm to the US 37mm, which most of you should be familiar with from the P-39 in WBs. The Russian gun has a shell thats 20% larger, has twice the rate of fire, and a very high muzzle velocity that should shoot pretty flat (higher even than the Hispano 20mm).

I can't wait to see what guns like this can do to buffs and tanks (fighters should disintegrate entirely from a single hit).

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-06-2000).]