Author Topic: Bogey running, you're chasing... (Read 986 times)

jonnyb · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2002, 08:30:05 AM »

I see I arrived just in time to help the poor struggling little fishies with those big nasty hooks in their mouths....

Of course he's joking. Spraying from 2.0 out....augering if the HO fails....upping where lots of friendlies are....seeing "3 big white planes with guns sticking out all over"....mmmm....that worm looks so good.....wonder what that shiny metal thing is?

When chasing a plane on the deck that is faster than me, I start into a shallow climb while pursuing. I will also break a little to either side so I'm not directly on the bogie's 6. I usually like to keep them between my 10 and 2. This ultimately gives you the energy advantage should your target decide to turn and engage. By maneuvering out of the 12-6 line, you also set yourself up to avoid the HO, and gain angles on your quarry sooner.

Once I see my target start to execute his turn back into me, I go nose-level and hit WEP to gain as much speed as I can coming back into him. I will adjust my course slightly depending on which way he turns. For example, if he's turning to the left, I'll adjust my course so that I am headed further to his right. This has two advantages. The first is that he will waste more energy turning to try to get a solution on you. The second is that he thinks he's going to acquire a solution on you because you're now showing him your 9 or 3, so he'll do a lot of energy burning moves to get behind you.

While he's wasting his energy to try and maneuver for the kill, you're gaining yours. When it is time to engage, you've now got the energy advantage and plenty of options.

humble · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2002, 10:14:28 AM »

Fancy...a couple of points to consider.

1) if the plane you are chasing is able to extend from you then your relative energy state is worsening...so don't chase.

2) there is no such thing as an "equal merge" all kinds of variables and options...99.9% of the time one side comes out a bit better off.

3) plane type matters here...if your in a A5 you'vr got better handling than the A8...obviously your not in a D9 if stuff is running from you.

My 2 cents on best tactic is as follows...as con extends past 2.0 out break gently to one side by 30 dergrees or so in a gentle climb (use wep for a min or so). You want to maximize alt while allowing seperation. If the con goes high on a reverse you have to options:

1) continue turn and wep and dive for deck toward some good guys.

2) level out (keep wep on) watch his turn (1 timing, 2 may help you judge skill level). As he tops out turn gently toward him and dive a bit. You dont want to get all the way to deck or get way under but you want to be the low guy on re-merge. As you close back inside 2.5 watch his tactics...a real ace won't accept your merge...he'll break off high. Otherwise you've set up a classic neg E merge. The cone will be fighting superior E while your merging up hill storing what you have...you can extend or initiate a 3rd merge.

3) If the con goes high on you he's doing 1 of two things...a full extension or an energy opener. In 1st he'll take his E up and B&Z you...not really an immediate threat. 2nd one he'll be off the gas and using a "rudder slap" to bleed E and get an inverted look for you...as you break he'll use rudder to role in the vertical and come screaming back in quick. Thats where you'd need a bit of room below. As he breaks up role away 30-45 degrees and watch...if he goes high your back to original position...just more vertical extension instead of horizontal. If he's coming hard you've got a tougher situation and a better pilot (most likely)...you'll need to break back into his attack to deny the angle and then decide to run and juke or attempt to draw him into a rolling vertical scissors (my choice)....anyone just 1 guys thoughts.

Just remember even though the cons "running" he's got the better E state. He also has you beaten in your mind the moment he reverses into you...tough combo to beat.

Fancy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2002, 11:24:05 AM »

Wow, some great tactics here guys, thanks a lot.

Hey Mooja:

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This user is on your ignore list. To view this post click [here].

Oh yes, and you're not funny, you're a:

bozon · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2002, 02:43:42 PM »

some solid advices mentioned here.

my tactic is the exact opposite -
my p-47 wont catch any of the 1944-5 fighters and will barely run away from a spit9 without diving. so when they extend from me, I turn my 6 and invite them to suddle up

9 out of 10 players will start drooling so bad to see a 200mph p-47 infront of them, that they'll drool all over the windshield and miss the shot, try to saddle-up while being too fast, get sucked into a stallfight and end up dead.

Tacticaly, it's a bad option.
Gamicly, it's the fun option.

running after some guy who dont want to fight unless he has the advatage is boring (but if he likes spending his time running away, I won't call him names). give the guy his advantage and try to slap him with it - much much more fun and rewarding.

my 0.02$
Bozon

0Drag · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2002, 03:18:25 PM »

OH MY GOD!

humble · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2002, 03:20:14 PM »

I think a well flown slow jug is an awful tough nut to crack. It's a bear to kill and will actually handle very nicely in a scissors fight. If you misplay your hand and fail to deny the overshoot you'll be a k-mart special in the used parts isle. If you get to conservative and happen to misjudge the E state of the jug he can tail slide you with those 8x.50's also. Of course the worst thing is you don't know if your dealing with Drex, Frenchy etc...so your already a bit twitchy:)

RightF00T · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2002, 06:47:53 PM »

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Originally posted by humble
I think a well flown slow jug is an awful tough nut to crack. It's a bear to kill and will actually handle very nicely in a scissors fight. If you misplay your hand and fail to deny the overshoot you'll be a k-mart special in the used parts isle. If you get to conservative and happen to misjudge the E state of the jug he can tail slide you with those 8x.50's also. Of course the worst thing is you don't know if your dealing with Drex, Frenchy etc...so your already a bit twitchy:)

shhhhh...

Kweassa · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2002, 07:51:45 PM »

That's kind of harsh to a guy who's been here for only three weeks. Not everybody instantly grasps what we are aiming at here Fancy et. all, I probably would have thought the same in the given situation as Mooja, and so would everyone, if he was here for only three weeks. No need to antagonize a seemingly blumbering answer

, because through such mistakes people learn. Everybody was a blumb once.

....

Mooja, there are few things to consider as a whole:

a) The first and largest objective for a fighter pilot is to shoot the enemy down.

b) but, as a whole, the larger purpose behind shooting the enemy down is to survive. That's why tactics are developed. Pyrhic victories are worthless.

c) Efficient combat tactics are there to help people win AND survive[/I], not to just win. That is the ultimate premise between all tactical considerations. Therefore, any move that has a good chance to jeopardize your survival cannot be defined as a tactic. It's more of a gung-ho suicidal move. Even with considerable advantage in firepower many good pilots choose not to go for a Head-on, because not only they want victory, but they also want to survive and cherish the victory.

...

Not only the HO tactic you suggest is very inefficient, but it is also dangerous for yourself - because it is so predictable. To say the truth, when I see a bogey chasing either my shallow climb-out or extension when I'm clearly faster, it is almost always noticeable that the guys a "newbie".

Because the faster plane has a lot more than just one "fancy move" up his sleeve, turning the tables on such a wild attempt is what every experienced pilot would instantly recognize as "rope-a-dope".

The faster guy pulls forward, does the "fancy maneuver". You aim up to him. Is that all? What would happen if the enemy goes into a classic double-Immelmann? There are so many ways to so easily counter what you have suggested that the chances are, the HO attempt you described will rarely even achieve mutual knock-outs.

......

My suggestion is this - you should start rethinking this "agenda" you have here:

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In a normal, uni-directional shooting plane your main focus should be to always keep the nme in front of you ... *blah blah crap crap* ... I can tell you from experience 9.9 times out of ten if you try to turn around the nme will just shoot you down anyway. So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.

What you have stated applies only to planes with equal E-status or very simular characteristics. Also, what you have stated is a classic "1 vs 1", "dog-fighting" scenario familiar to WWI style of air combat.

If I may remind you, that sort of thinking died out in the first year of WWII.

ps) To be more precise, that sort of thinking died out even before WWI ended. There's a good reason Baron von Richtofen was able to achieve 80+ kills and honored as a legend - because his enemies thought like you did, Mooja, and Richtofen thought exactly the opposite.

batdog · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2002, 06:40:17 AM »

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Originally posted by Mooja
Ack, I know what i'm talking about. I've been playing now for over three weeks. The HO is your best chance of success. If the nme gets by you on the HO they'll immediately be directly behind you with guns blazing. I've seen it happen time after time. Believe me. If you don't shoot on the HO you won't get another chance. I've found most guys won't even shoot back on an HO so you get free shots with no risk. If he does shoot back then at least you're on level ground with a 50-50 chance of winning. I'll take a 1 to 1 kill ratio any day.

As for kills don't be too worried about those. Those are easy to get. When I first started I was on the end of the runway trying to start the engine and the next thing I knew something blew up beside me and a message popped up on my screen that said I got a kill on somebody. Believe me it's much easier to get kills than it is to keep the nme in front of you.

As for other strategies, take 44's example where you climb into them. Now the bogs just gonna turn around and then he's moving fast and you're moving slow (climbing). Who do you think is gonna be the easiest target to hit? The slow one is. Plus, when you're climbing it's harder to aim on the HO. 44's other strategy was to turn around on the bog and I'll just say that is about the worst thing you can do. When you turn around now the bogs behind you and in a few seconds his guns will be blazing and you'll be a puff of smoke. This strategy may work if you're in a plane with guns sticking out the back end cause they're very dangerous. A plane that can shoot in two directions at the same time will always win over a plane that can only shoot in one. It's just plain logic.

When you get more advanced and make it up to about 25K feet you'll start to see some very dangerous planes. I saw three huge white ones up there once that had guns sticking out in every direction. Be careful though cause you can't see the guns till you get very close. Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.

In a normal, uni-directional shooting plane your main focus should be to always keep the nme in front of you. As soon as you notice an nme is behind you should nose down and auger as that way you make the hardest possible target to hit plus they may follow you into the ground. If possible always auger when the nme is more than about 2.0 out cause then no one gets your points. If you watch your plane when you turn your wings flare out in the direction of the nme and you just make a bigger target. I can tell you from experience 9.9 times out of ten if you try to turn around the nme will just shoot you down anyway. So you can see the HO's are your best shot and after that it's pointless to do anything but auger.

Hehe.... he's brilliant! More more!!!! I fell outta my seat! Mooj..your awesome. Does anybody else here sense some humor....?

xBAT

thrila · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2002, 09:26:17 AM »

Gotta agree with you xbat. Mooj is a genious!

SlapShot · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2002, 10:24:46 AM »

Is it that Mooj is a genious or the responders aren't ? I have seen some well disguised hooks, but I thought that this one had a neon sign all over it.

Those that took the hook, line, and sinker, in all fairness, have given some real good information, but you still can't help but piss your pants laughing.

HFMudd · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2002, 10:32:05 AM »

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Those three took me by surprise that time and shot me down before I got a chance to auger.

I think this is my favorite bit... May have to add it to my sig.

CSDMMNT · « **Reply #27 on:** October 31, 2002, 10:46:29 AM »

Mooja forgets to tell the l33+ s3kr3+z of HOing.

1) Always ensure you are climbing into the HO

2) Always ensure your HO target is diving

3) Always go in guns blazing with nose directed right to the center of target

4) If target doesn't explode be absolutely sure you collide with it. This saves you the auger time ...

Given 1) and 2) the collision is paramount! This means the enemy will have to bail before you due to the fact he/she is already diving and thus approaching the ground faster than you are!

Happy HOing! ... and remember to tip your chosen HO

humble · « **Reply #28 on:** October 31, 2002, 11:27:22 AM »

You need to seperate out the "hookies" from those trying to answer Fancy's original post...obviously mooj trolled with dynamite instead of as hook and sinker:eek:

Drifter1234 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 31, 2002, 04:19:52 PM »

Mooja sounds like Father Guido Sarducci of Saturday Night Live describing ACM.

Drftr