Author Topic: SA and Tactics: Prime skills  (Read 324 times)

Offline Widewing

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« on: October 30, 2002, 10:10:05 AM »
It's been an ordeal at times, but I finally managed to exceed 100 kills (102) in the SBD. However, several of those are ground kills. So, maybe I need a few more sorties. :(

I have heard so many arguing whether the critical factor in success is the plane or the pilot. Actually, I believe it to be neither. It's all about tactics and SA. Performance and ACM skills take a back seat to those two. If it is possible to maintain a positive K/D in a slow climbing, slow moving, poorly armed dive bomber, anyone should be able to do much better than that in any fighter assuming they employ the correct tactics and have good situational awareness.

Teaching SA isn't easy, and I certainly have no talent for teaching it. However, my squadron has been spending its training nights flying free-for-alls in the TA. You know what? Nothing has made greater improvements in the squad's SA and ACM skills more than these two-hour brawls.  

By the way, we have a new, exceptional pilot in the =Ghosts=. Blazes is a 757 captain, and former Navy pilot. Blazes is one badass fighter jock! Like many of the better pilots, he is usually found in Hellcats, Jugs and P-38s. So beware my Knit and Bish buddies. This guy is awesome! I believe he is a recent Warbirds defector. He's off to a blazing (lol) start at 29/4.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: October 30, 2002, 10:19:47 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline DoctorYO

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2002, 10:59:19 AM »
I agree and dis-agree with your post:

First i think the primary focus is on pilot skill, Yes in my opinion Pilot skill makes up for the most important attribute for fighter combat.  I also think plane type is a very important factor also.

Luck / netlag is your intangibles....

Exp:  Two pilots of equal skill enter a fight one in a p40b and one in your choice of late warbirds, Stang, g10, rocket7 etc....

The guy in the superior plane should win hands down 90% of the time with the other 10% going to the intangibles.

Now the other night i dumped and hit with 2 out of 5 1/4-1/2 sec bursts of .50cal into fester's spitfire5 left wing and only the left wing. (note 5 bursts i was in the saddle not BZ while he was trying the lag induced climb then negative g superlagomatic tactic..  I dont mind that tactic its the fact your plane took no dammage and that is what intriques me.)

note this shot was at covergence 275  my standard for the stang.  No freaking way  any plane should have been able to survive that let alone the weak winged spitfire. (yes i got in on film. If it happens again some films are going to fly real fast.  It almost reminds me of when you would shoot Torque's chog with tons of .50's and he would just keep flying.??? make your own deductions)

This is a clear case of luck intangibles, cheating whatever you want to call it.

See i would be disappointed but I executed flawlessly and still came up short even with my 22% gunnery at the time.. (note gunnery is down due to microwarping at d200 less in my zeke fighting. current gunnery at high 15%)

Never the less it happens.

Plane does matter  And sometimes plane and skill matter not. with the real factor being lag, luck, cheating, whining, Chaos Theory or whatever you want to blame it on...  

Long story short:

Pilot Skill i rate at 60-80%
plane i rate 10-50 %
luck intangibles 10% or more.

Note these figures are for a duel type of enviroment; in the MA to many factors for me to discuss in one post.


my 2 cents.


DoctorYO

Offline MotorOil

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2002, 11:24:38 AM »
Tactics are everything.  If you fly a plane in a squad the way it was designed for you will be deadly.  I've watched some squads do this and their stats are representative of their tactics.  I know when I fly with my squadie (RunnGunn) and we actually use tactics, we are almost indestructible.  Don't worry knits and bish, we don't do that too often, don't have the patience for it! :p

Problem with using tactics is the patience issue.  Takes time, discipline and effort to get alt, pick a target or even to stay with your wing mate despite seeing that low con you know you can just go down and kill but you have an objective.

We flew a pair of Tempests for 2 hours before getting killed.  Both at the same airfield on the same sortie I might add.  Run was downed by a lone ack gun and I by a great Spit pilot.  But we never allowed the opposition to get much of a shot at us.  Being in the Tempest alleviated some of patience because we were fast.  We saw two field caps and about a combined 30 kills.  It was our dive, climb and close tactics that allowed that success.  Was alot of fun also I might add.  Never spent so much time in a perk plane.

Temp might a bad example but we kept alt over the opposition and stayed together often targeting the same target.  The point is if we had taken those planes in alone and low into a furball we wouldn't have lasted so long.

Offline Creamo

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2002, 11:38:53 AM »
I have heard so many arguing whether the critical factor in success is the plane or the pilot. Actually, I believe it to be neither. It's all about tactics and SA. Performance and ACM skills take a back seat to those two. If it is possible to maintain a positive K/D in a slow climbing, slow moving, poorly armed dive bomber, anyone should be able to do much better than that in any fighter assuming they employ the correct tactics and have good situational awareness.

I challenge you to a duel, in the DA.

You in the SBD, me in a Dora.  Best of 7. Loser pays accounts till 2003.

No amount of SA in the current MA will let you win. Your just using MA tactics of being away from anything all the time, or being next to flak even more.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2002, 11:46:27 AM »
Quote
Teaching SA isn't easy, and I certainly have no talent for teaching it. However, my squadron has been spending its training nights flying free-for-alls in the TA. You know what? Nothing has made greater improvements in the squad's SA and ACM skills more than these two-hour brawls.


I would think that practicing against folks who's skillsets are not too strong, might leave you with an incorrect assessment of just how good you and your squad really is.

You might try the MA as a barometer of where you fall as a squad or even enter your squad in the next sqd vs sqd duel?

Offline SunKing

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2002, 12:16:23 PM »
you gotta share the film on that one...

Offline Innominate

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2002, 12:23:34 PM »
ACM in the MA is next to useless, except for the rare fights involving only a couple of pilots.  It's for duels, 95% of the time the MA is a furball where a quick kill is more important than a safe one, or even a death.  This is a big reason why HO attacks happen so much, often not from lack of skill, but in a race to beat other friendlies to the kill, and to get the kill before any other enemies can jump in.

The three most important things for a good k/d ratio in the MA are,
Good SA,
Good Gunnery,
Lots of spare time to climb, run, and repeat.

ACM is good for the dueling arena, or when you are lucky enough to be alone with a con, but not for the general MA.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2002, 12:45:58 PM »
Quote
Now the other night i dumped and hit with 2 out of 5 1/4-1/2 sec bursts of .50cal into fester's spitfire5 left wing and only the left wing. (note 5 bursts i was in the saddle not BZ while he was trying the lag induced climb then negative g superlagomatic tactic.. I dont mind that tactic its the fact your plane took no dammage and that is what intriques me.)

note this shot was at covergence 275 my standard for the stang. No freaking way any plane should have been able to survive that let alone the weak winged spitfire. (yes i got in on film. If it happens again some films are going to fly real fast. It almost reminds me of when you would shoot Torque's chog with tons of .50's and he would just keep flying.??? make your own deductions)

This is a clear case of luck intangibles, cheating whatever you want to call it.

DoctorYO

Wow, 2 cheater accustations so innocently presented.  Bravo!!


F.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2002, 12:47:59 PM by Furious »

Offline DoctorYO

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2002, 12:58:39 PM »
Not Accusing anyone of anything just noting some strangeness... and when it happens again my second camera film will get it.  That way there is no confusion or bias just straight up evidence....  

Like the paste job of the DoctorYO out of context..  you shouldquit your day job and join some of these news mega-networks..  im shure after they see your  paste job youll be hired for good reporting instantly.

"Thats the news at 5:00"


:) :)

have a nice day....


DoctorYo

Offline Puck

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2002, 01:00:48 PM »
Ah, young Jedi, not even Ender can get himself out of a situation he doesn't know he's in.  SA is everything.

It won't nessisarily win you any fights, but without it you will loose most of them.  SA is what gives you the ability to applly your tactical genius to the engagement.

SA, SA, gunnery, SA, and skill.

Even Ender can't win a fight if he can't get his guns on target.  You can out-fly everyone in the arena, but if you can't hit 'em you don't get the kill (I'm ignoring maneuver kills here).

The bad news is you need all three to be successful.  

SA, Gunnery, and ACM.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline Wlfgng

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2002, 01:13:00 PM »
in that order...

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2002, 02:07:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
I have heard so many arguing whether the critical factor in success is the plane or the pilot. Actually, I believe it to be neither. It's all about tactics and SA. Performance and ACM skills take a back seat to those two. If it is possible to maintain a positive K/D in a slow climbing, slow moving, poorly armed dive bomber, anyone should be able to do much better than that in any fighter assuming they employ the correct tactics and have good situational awareness.

I challenge you to a duel, in the DA.

You in the SBD, me in a Dora.  Best of 7. Loser pays accounts till 2003.

No amount of SA in the current MA will let you win. Your just using MA tactics of being away from anything all the time, or being next to flak even more.


You haven't figured it out yet, have you? What you desire is that SA and tactics be factored out by having just one enemy and every advantage possible from the outset. However, in the MA all bets are off. You might find that lowly SBD 10k above you, meaning it can run you down. You might find yourself at under 250 mph, where a Dora is dead meat against the ancient SBD.

For starters, I would not even engage a Dora unless I had at least one of the following in my favor: Speed, altitude and stealth. I will always engage if I have two of them. Again, tactics and SA are the critical factors. No one would be so silly as to claim that the SBD was as good as the 190D in the role of fighter. After all, it's easy to avoid the SBD by staying fast. Moreover you can engage in slashing attacks at will. Just don't screw up and burn your E down. This is a genuine "no-brainer".

Last night I caught a Ta152 on the deck chasing a Corsair. I was 6k above. It was easy to run him down and beat him up. There was nothing he could do about it. Good fortune smiled on him when a C.205 intervened. I had to kill it before turning my attention back to the 152, who managed to ditch before I could catch up. I landed 9 kills that sortie, reloading once. By the way, two of those were B-26s, both of which had a wing sawed off in a single pass. Don't underestimate those two .50 caliber MGs.

The whole concept of SA and tactics is focused on forcing the enemy to fight your fight. If you can force them into a slow turning fight, very few aircraft (the A6M2 being the sole threat) can survive long against the SBD. What about the Val? No problem. Don't even bother to try shaking one. Just man the rear guns and blast it to oblivion. Those paired .30 cal Brownings hit a lot harder than the two 7.7 mm water pistols of the Val. I don't know why that is the case, but it is.

Yet, the fact is that many of my kills are gained flying at speeds well in excess of 300 mph, using stealth to work my way into a position of advantage. Frequently, it's a classic "bounce". The SBD is also a fun platform for intercepting and killing Ju 88s headed out to your CV.

I seem to recall getting a kill on your Dora last week, I think I was in a Yak or La-5. ;) I honestly don't recall the circumstances, but odds are that never saw me before it was too late, or not at all.

As to flying near or around ack, you're as likely to encounter my SBD over your field as over mine. As I've said many times, if you want to catch fish, ya gotta go where the fish are.

Now, if you really want to duel, I suggest you take a P-40B or Bf 109E-4, and then see what happens.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Sabre

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SA and Tactics: Prime skills
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2002, 02:40:23 PM »
Eric Hartman's mantra: "See, decide, attack, evaluate." By "see" Hartman meant SA.  Most air combat, as far as my own study of it suggests, was decided by who noticed the other guy first.  Most people shot down never saw the enemy until their plane began to disintegrate.  SA is more than simply knowing there is an enemy in the area, by the way.  It is acquiring, and then holding in one's mind a continually updated 3-dimensional picture of every object in the air and on the ground (including most especially, the ground's proximity), that could have an effect on the combat's outcome.  SA reigns supreme in determining the outcome of aerial contests.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2002, 03:26:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude


I would think that practicing against folks who's skillsets are not too strong, might leave you with an incorrect assessment of just how good you and your squad really is.

You might try the MA as a barometer of where you fall as a squad or even enter your squad in the next sqd vs sqd duel?


You are absolutely correct. Fortunately, we have some good sticks. Being a relatively new squad, we have lots of newbies. However, we also have some decent sticks such as Hammer, BGS and SNO. However, newbies can be worked into diamonds. Every hot stick was a newbie once.

As a squad, we are a long way from being competitive in squad competitions. If it were limited to just 6 pilots, we could hold our own nicely, I suppose. The =Ghosts= are a solid attack and bombing squadron. Pretty good with GVs too.

Our “free-for-alls” give our newbies a chance to dogfight with experienced pilots and learn from their mistakes. Even the experienced pilots learn too. All are encouraged to try every fighter and learn the limits of each. In the MA, we push paring with experienced pilots.

Sunday night I had my P-51B vulched by squadies. Hmm… I grabbed a Zeke (A6M2) and demonstrated why you don’t turnfight with them. Low and behold, they start upping Zekes too. Well, I augered and grabbed an F4U-4, and they learned the futility of flying a Zero against a high-performance fighter. Go like hell, rip through them with impunity. They were learning though, and tried to box me in. Therefore, I simply isolated them one at a time. Tactic, counter tactic. I’m far from the top of the heap in ACM skills, but I have good command of tactics. And tactics, combined with good SA is all a newbie needs at the beginning. The problem is that tactics and SA are usually the last thing most newbies learn, instead of being the first. As Yogi Berra said, “you can observe a lot by just watching”. I encourage newbies to pay close attention to how the really good MA pilots fly. Learning SA isn’t easy. Observing how others fly helps a lot.

Another point: The furballing goes a long way to developing good gunnery skills.

As for tactical considerations, the basic doctrine I push on them comes straight from 8th AF Fighter Command training documents. It worked over Europe, and it works in the MA too. The only drawback is that we may develop a whole squadron of high-flying, cherry picking dweebs! :D

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Puck

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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2002, 03:31:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
The only drawback is that we may develop a whole squadron of high-flying, cherry picking dweebs! :D



Don't be doing that crap.  Up last night at 25,000 in an F4U-1, and I spot a N1K2-J about 5k off and a couple thousand below.  Waltzed over, saddled up, and filled his right wing with 50 cal slugs (then went into a spin when I tried to turn to hard; never said I didn't suck).

Classic case of poor SA.  He wasn't much of a threat to a fast hog that far up, but he gave me a non-maneuvering target to shoot at.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&