Author Topic: Madison riots  (Read 1908 times)

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
Madison riots
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2002, 08:20:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
The old saw, or argument based on need is not the one to use when talking about a capitalistic society. The "need" argument is best based onm a socialistic or communistic society. After all if ownership, excuse me possession, of an item is based upon need then it must be the same for all.

Take for example the following situations.

No one "NEEDS" to have a vehicle larger than say a Yugo or a small mini pickup. Actually only a tradesman or agricultural producer "NEEDS" to have a pickup.

No one "NEEDS" to have a computer more capable than a P3 or an AMD 500 Mhz machine. These can play most games adequately and certainly will handle the chores for school etc wtihout any problems.

No one "NEEDS" to have a house larger than say 1000 Sq feet. That will give them a room or two for sleeping, bathing and food prep and consumption. If you have a larger family well.....

No one "NEEDS" to have more than one or two children anyhow.

No one "NEEDS" to have an internet conection faster than 33.3BPS as that is perfectly adequate for e-mail and "chat".

Get the point? A "needs" based argument is not valid in a society with choices. All of these would have to be enforced by a "paternalistic" government that the people "NEED" to tell them how to live and what they should have.


SO we would give poeple whatever they want then...you know like Heroin?

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Madison riots
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2002, 08:33:11 PM »
OT, but it could be argued that a person addicted to Heroin is incapable of making a responsible judgement as to whether he needs it, AND a heroin junkie is also arguably incapable of controlling his own actions/behaving responsibly.


Red Herring.

J_A_B

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
Madison riots
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2002, 10:11:21 PM »
Perhaps at first, but the suggestion that personal freedoms should include everything you want is ridicolous.
I agreed with your assessment earlier about the social differences we have, but  it would seem the message did not sink through for some.
Like labelling a government which places restrictions on it citizens "socialist, or communist"  just as ridicolous. What are laws, if not there to protect it's citizens.
Considering we're talking about Australia here, a true democratic society it is hillarious to be called such.

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Madison riots
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2002, 10:33:25 PM »
"but it would seem the message did not sink through for some. "

Agreed.   My thought is some people (on both sides of the fence) have their minds made up and will ignore anything they don't agree with.

"Like labelling a government which places restrictions on it citizens "socialist, or communist" just as ridicolous. "

Also agreed.   I don't know the motivations of the Aussi government nor do I pretend to.   If I was going to assume anything, then I'd assume that the Australian people as a whole simply won't tolerate the amount of gun crime that Americans will and are willing to go to any length to stop it.  

Which, judging by what I see posted on this BBS, seems like a reasonable assumption.

J_A_B

Offline SC-Sp00k

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Madison riots
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2002, 12:14:01 AM »
I would like to see the poll which states American Citizens prefer higher Crime rates so that the Majority may excercise their right to bear arms.

Im sorry but I do not believe it.  I would suggest that the notion of armed citizens is so ingrained upon the population that the very thought of disarming the population is met with derision and resentment and above all suspicion.

That whilst the right exists to bear arms, which is not argued, the idea of it being a justifiable option to ensure the Country does not run roughshod over its citizens is outmoded and irrelevant during these modern times.

Back in the days of olde when the Union and the South went to war against each other it may have been understandable.  But as the Democratic World Super Power that the USA now is, doesnt the concept of its citizens taking control sound a little bizarre?

Did you do it to bring an end to the Vietnam war? Did you do it to ensure equal rights for Blacks? Did you do it to stop anything you opposed?  No.  An individual or Group may have but not the citizenry of a Country.  That individual or Group was then named a Criminal element and slapped in irons.  

Im not stating that anyones thinking this, as the Military would no doubt quell any rebellion in short order anyway, but to use the Right to bear arms as an excuse for the Right to rise up against the Government of the Country is simply uncomphrensible in todays Western democratic world.

Kieran, a Gun is an inanimate object of steel, plastic and wood. It has no thought processes, no emotion and no ability to learn. The Gun has no instinct and no sense of wrong. It kills as a result of external force generally initiated by Human means. It suffers no remorse and you cannot punish it.  It will kill again in exactly the same manner over and over again.

The family dog which grows up with the Family as a pup, learns its place in the order of the house and responds to both kind and cruel treatment. Both of which are generally the result of human influence.

The Dog is an Animal of moderate intelligence and as such it is prone to instinctive behaviour, sometimes good and sometimes bad.  

If you have a badass domestic family dog. Blame the owner, previous or present.  I have no problems with my dog.  Tho he does have a penchant to steal cheesecake.  I allow him that indiscretion.

Mav I do not agree with your Needs concept.  Being Capitalist or Socialist is inconsequential.  Basic Human Need, Desire and Flaw. Greed, Ego and Power. The urge to Dominate and Conquer.  The reality for a minority. The Fantasy for a Majority.

How many gun owners have thought about using a gun on another human being?  Im better nearly every single one.  A passing fancy perhaps or just a little imagination run astray doing no more harm than that.  But who hasnt?  The first person to say they have never thought about it, im gonna call a Liar.   We are all hunters.  Genetically born to kill. If not human then another Animal.  Very few pass thought life without recognising it within themselves at least once.

It has nothing to do with Nationality, Freedom or Right.  It has to do with holding an item in your hand that can snuff out anothers existance in the blink of an eye.  Guns make us feel powerful and safe. Whatever the reality might actually be.

I dare say over 90% of your population does not actually need a gun. Its personal choice based on the presumption of power and safety.  Hence the right to do so by Charter is convieniant.  Its makes for a good excuse.  But its not the real reason they possess one.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2002, 12:27:57 AM by SC-Sp00k »

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Madison riots
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2002, 12:55:55 AM »
"I would like to see the poll which states American Citizens prefer higher Crime rates so that the Majority may excercise their right to bear arms. "

You just don't get it, do you?   I am tempted to feel sorry for someone so closed-minded that he cannot comprehend why we Americans cherish our rights, even when said rights have serious downsides.

We don't "prefer" the crime, we accept it a cost of having a freedom.   Our crime rate is only VERY slightly higher than yours, and there is NO way to prove that all of that extra crime is caused by the abundance of firearms although certainly some of it is (anyone care to look up STABBING death statistics?  The USA will be higher there too and knives are prefectly legal elsewhere in the world).

Yes it's a freedom that YOU don't see any value of having.  That's fine.  I can understand YOUR side perfectly well.   Why is it so hard for you to understand the American way?  Can't you accept that some people might not agree with your line of thinking?


J_A_B

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Madison riots
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2002, 01:02:34 AM »
Two specific statements which I felt the need to address on their own, hence the separate post:


"I dare say over 90% of your population does not actually need a gun."

So that is a reason to make it illegal for them to own one?  I don't NEED my Cadillac.  I could get by perfectly fine with a Honda.  Does that mean I should have to forfeit my car?  My car is bad for the environment and could cause serious injuries to a person driving a smaller vehicle should I hit one.  More people die in car accidents than from gun fatalities and a major contributing factor to auto fatalities is large differences in weight.  Lots of social downsides.  But the costs to society are OUTWEIGHED by the importance of preserving individual freedom--I am free to drive what I like, and if I kill somebody with it then I go to jail.  Same with gun ownership.

"Its personal choice based on the presumption of power and safety"

Unless you are psychic and can read the minds of 200 million Americans, this statement is nothing more than unfounded conjecture.  

J_A_B

Offline SC-Sp00k

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Madison riots
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2002, 04:06:57 AM »
Think of a number.... :p

Yes, I get it. I understand what your saying and im asking why.
I dont think any less of a person because they own a gun. Again, ive owned a few myself.  Im asking why you believe the risk acceptable.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Madison riots
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2002, 04:18:28 AM »
J_A_B
Quote
"It appears to me that Americans maintaining their second amendment right is more important to them than whatever deaths may come from the proliferation of firearms in thier country. "

Yes, that is correct. And it will stay that way until the population of the US at large decides otherwise.
Wow, well that's the most honest answer I've ever seen on this debate. Unfortunately, those people who might like to change the status quo cannot speak. :(  But I ask you: Is it really worth hanging on to an 18th century anachronism in the name of freedom, but at the expense of thousands of lives each year?  Why not legalise heroin & cocaine in that case.

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Madison riots
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2002, 06:19:59 AM »
Funny thing is, Spook and Beetle, I don't feel unsafe because of guns. I just... don't. I would worry about guns in school if they were allowed, but they aren't. 'Course that doesn't mean guns aren't in some schools, but it isn't the law abiding students who bring them, now is it?

You guys are getting way past the point of making your point and are bordering on attempting to ram your viewpoints down our throats.

Quote
Wow, well that's the most honest answer I've ever seen on this debate. Unfortunately, those people who might like to change the status quo cannot speak.


Whose status quo do you want to change? Hell, I don't like the way you decorate the inside of your house... mind getting on that for me? I think it'd look better in shades of eggshell blue, with some bug gut green splashed here and there...

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Madison riots
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2002, 07:22:02 AM »
Kieran - the inside of my house is still the original magnolia. Many hate it, but I like it, and thus far it has not been responsible for causing any deaths.

The people who would have benefited from change to the status quo regarding gun law are no longer alive to benefit.

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Madison riots
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2002, 07:31:09 AM »
My, you do have a penchant for exaggeration. This went from curiosity to proselytizing pretty quickly.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Madison riots
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2002, 07:43:05 AM »
What point am I supposed to be exaggerating? OK, maybe you're right. Only a few people said they didn't like the magnolia.

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Madison riots
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2002, 08:03:43 AM »
The fact is,  you characterize the wish of Americans to own guns as selfishness in the face of deadly peril to our citizenship. You're not American even if you have been here, it's apparent the experience didn't rub off on you.

You may view me as close-minded about it, which is ok because I view you the same way.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Madison riots
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2002, 08:09:27 AM »
Let me repeat the question - What point am I supposed to be exaggerating?