No Icons

[Löwe]

Sorry guys this was meant for Eskimo's thread and i screwed up and made it a new subject instead of a reply.

I see your point Eagler. However frame rate problems are one thing, not being able to see or even I.D. somebody that can I.D. you is different. At least to me. My computer can handle the no icon setup prety well, but theres a lot who can't. Look this game has always had icons they serve a purpose. If HTC designed this game so you could fly it without icons there wouldnt be any.
I have been an airplane nut all of my 44 years. Spent 16 of those years on an Air Force flight line. I can I.D. planes from un-godly distances in real life. In this game they are all just dots or look like a T until your right on top of them.
Warbirds did the same thing with WB's III the no icon crowd took over the HA, their version of the CT. HTC's stock went up right after that, in fact thats when I came over as well. Like I said just my 2 cents, and just my opinion we're not there yet in graphics.
When HTC decides the game can be played properly without icons that's one thing, but part of the player community force feeding the rest of us on no-icons is another.

[Nifty]

which is why not one person in that thread was advocating it to be used all the time.  A one week thing, some even thought maybe just a one or two day thing here and there.  

Personally, I'd love to have that option as a CM.  In a early Pac snapshot it would be perfect.  a6m2s/d3a1s vs f4fs/sbds.  All white vs all blue.  Just about everyone should be able to tell the difference, even on small monitors.  Plus the fact that the Zeke needs to get in close to be effective with those cannons anyways.

I definitely would never advocate this for a P-40E vs c202/c205 event though.

I view it the same way I view night in game.  A lot of people hate the night and refuse to play.  I still schedule Snapshots that are night based and 40 people show up and have tons of fun!  So we lose a few people for one Snapshot, I know they'll be back the next week when the sun is back out (or in the case of this thread, icons are back on.)

You're right if the CT became permanent no icons.  That'd be wrong.  However, for one day (or week) or one special event, to play in an environment where no one had icons would be rather enjoyable for a lot of people.

[Miska]

Would friendly icons only still be a problem?  It allows long range IFF, but doesn't artificially boost SA in a close-in fight.

[Sixpence]

I think no icons on the vehicles would be good. From what I hear they were hard to spot in dense terrain and the icon is a dead giveaway.

[Jospe2]

I agree with GV's having no Icon, ever.   It would enhance the the SA part of the game.   Besides the tracers will give away the postition anyways. ( unless turned off ... to hard to aim though) Then depending on who his around youll have to determine if the GV's shooting at you or the bandit on your 6'0.   Or leave it on so only friendlys can see icons?

I also think it would be fun to try 1-2 days with no icons.  Leaving dar bar on though.

Jospe

[J_A_B]

It's almost pointless to try to explain to these people what the human eye is actually capable of Lowe.  For some odd reason a lot of people equate difficulty with realism, even difficulty to the point of absurdity (such as not having icons in a game like AH).

J_A_B

[ergRTC]

jab your just being obstinate. We all have read HTCs comment about icons and we all understand that without stereo vision determining plane distance is very difficult. Just as we fly without peripheral vision and htc allows us to change our views however we like (as anything less would make it more difficult than real life). All of that asside, I would like to try a day or two without icons.

Why you feel that we think this is more real beats me.  Just as the icon and distance marker makes planes artificially visiable and there distance absolute is gamey.  Lets all try it the other way for a day (if we could, but that seems to be impossible anyway).

And... on another note
What the hell is your handle?  I dont remember ever seeing you fly in the ct.  Why are you even commenting on this?

[Jospe2]

Originally posted by J_A_B
It's almost pointless to try to explain to these people what the human eye is actually capable of Lowe.  For some odd reason a lot of people equate difficulty with realism, even difficulty to the point of absurdity (such as not having icons in a game like AH).

J_A_B

realism/difficulty I equate to: spins,blackouts,redouts,throttle managment, trimming, landing w/battle damage ..... ( would like to see engine overheat and gun jams modeled to) are these things not difficult and do they not add to the realism of the game?   Maybe it just depends on the person?  


Jospe

[eskimo2]

Some of the information that icons give us is actually better than RL.  
Positive Identification - Friend or Foe, the computer does not make mistakes on this and clearly labels planes as a friend or foe.  
Range, it always reads perfectly down to the yard.  Mr. Spock couldn’t even do that.
Friendly plane ID, at 3 miles I don’t think I could tell the difference between Sabre’s P-51D and Jarbo’s P-51D.
Enemy plane ID, at 3 miles I don’t think I could tell the difference between a 202 and a 205.
Enemy plane ID no matter what the lighting.  Even in the dead of night, all Icons glow like neon.
Camo is worthless within icon range, even at a glance.

Some of these concessions are needed for gameplay.  The MA could never exist without icons.  For example all countries have the same planes.
Some of these concessions are needed to help make up for what PC monitors lack compared to RL eyesight.  Pixels, peripheral vision, frame rates, and reflection are just a few things that make vision in AH much worse than RL.  Computer games like AH MUST offer some unrealistically accurate information to help make up for what they technologically cannot match compared to RL.

I would never advocate AH being more realistic OVERALL without them.  However, I do think that on occasion only, it would be fun to trade the benefits of icons (both the realistic and beyond realistic benefits) for the more realistic LOOK of a no icon arena.  It would be an entire new set of fighting and flying dilemmas.  Some of those dilemmas WOULD be more realistic.  The LOOK, clearly would be more realistic.  The visual information that each player would receive would only be a small fraction of that of RL.  Gameplay would be very different.  Players would get mad .  Bounces would happen often.  Killshootering most likely would reach an all time high.

Because of the inherent drawbacks from a lack of information with no icons, I still think a singles Vs. twins scenario would provide all players with as level a playing field as could be hoped for in a no icon environment.

But don’t worry, it can’t happen…
Yet.

eskimo

[Löwe]

Guys I apologize for side tracking this debate to another thread, I was late for work and not paying attention hit new thread instead of reply.
Honestly I'm with J_A_B on this issue, I don't think the arena or the sim is ready for no icons. For one thing it really screws squadron ops, because each plane of each type has the exact same paint scheme, so trying to figure out who your wingie is , is impossible. If your going to keep friendly icons whats the point of not having the enemy icons? Okay you may be able to tell it's an enemy because there is no icon, but not until your right on top of him can you tell what kind of plane it is. On my computer a FW-190, and a Bf-109 look the same until I'm  right on top of it. I do exept certain defensive manuvers  from a 190 and different ones from a 109. If you want friendly fire issues turn off kill shooter you'll have plenty of them. I would love no icons, if the graphic engine made them resonable. It doesnt right now, in my opinion.
What's happening to this arena? Is everyone just getting bored?
We used to worry about getting realistic plane matchups, now were asking for turdbirds, and twins vs singles, so we can have no icons. The historic matchups we were so insistant about before is fast becoming just a what if arena.
Personally I'll fly CT no matter what you guys arrange, just to
support it. However I wish we'd go back to being interested in histroical plane matchups, and quit worrying about stuff like icons and what ifs. I wouldnt complain about furthur reductions of icons, or even taking the range out if possible. This is still a game folks, it's not real airplanes, it's computer sprites we're chasing. Okay while I am on this soapbox how about some damn late war LW vs USAAF/RAF setups? Seems all the ETO setups have to be pre 190A,190D, P-51, P-47, now. The med is all the rage Hurri's, and p-40s vs early 109s, and C202s. Sheesh give us the P-47, and P-51, and P-38. Give the Luftwaffe the TA-152, the 190D, and the 262. LETS HAVE A DAMN WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
Rant mode off and back to normal/abnormal communications.

[Nifty]

Actually, I'm not advocating it's more realistic.  It's slightly less realistic than icons, IMO.

I'm advocating it for a day or a Snapshot because, omg, some people might find it fun.  

go figure, a CM wanting to try a different style event to give people some variety.

I'll say this again.  It's no different than nighttime.  Some people hate night in the game (me included).  However, 40+ people loved the GID snapshots that Nefari ran.

What's wrong with letting people who would enjoy forced no-icons enjoying it for a day or even just for a Snapshot?

[ergRTC]

Hey lowe, your right!  The last late war setup in europe I remember was that korea thing, which wasnt in europe, and wasnt even in ww2.  Lets do a late euro setup with those planes mentioned!

[Jospe2]

Last  nite I was trying to visually recognize plane shapes fdly/nme to see what it would be like.   Kill shooter does come to mind,  although I still think it would be fun to try for a day or two.


Also, re: Late war set-ups ... I am jones'n hard for a 38.  

Jospe

[Odee]

Not that I expect anyone to believe me, but....

Back in WB pre-version 2, (1.77?) in the HA I could ID most all the aircraft they had inthere LONG before they got into icon range.
(Nods to those that are chocking on laughter, waiting patiently for quiet to return)

Each AC at range, (on my screen at least) was comprsed of 4 to 5 sprites.  Each sprite was a different color.  The location of the colors matched the color scheme of the plane I was loking at.  Say the Spit5 *grey-yellow-lightblue*  or the 109 *grey-white-yellow* with the last color mentioned being the nose, or direction of the planes travel (sue me for putting em in backwards) .

Now this was way back when I was another pilot *Tern* riding with the Pale Horses.  So ask some of them if (A) they remember me and (B) if the recall me ID'ing AC outside icon range.

Now my question is: Why are ALL AC in AH *colorless* until you can see the "T" shape, like say the 51D?  Easy to ID that one because of the trailing RED.  But the rest of the AC are like trying to ID one of todays paintschemes on a jet.  *remember I could ID the camoflaged SPIT, so let's not talk about camo schemes please*

Anywho, it's out there on the table now for thinking on.

[Löwe]

Originally posted by Nifty

What's wrong with letting people who would enjoy forced no-icons enjoying it for a day or even just for a Snapshot?

Well nothing is wrong with it Nifty, other than "ENJOY" and "FORCED" being in the discription.