I think it's time to add Bomber Pilots to the Endangered Pilots List.

[lazs2]

loser... I do the same with cars but... I don't do it in the hope that it will make someone elses life less convienent in some collatereal way... If I run into someone else who wants to race... fine.. my goals shift.  I will enjoy beating him.

In the game... if you wish to kill buildings... you kill them regardless.   You don't need me for that and I would be just as happy to ignore you doing so.   When your building killing has too much effect (inconvienences me in much to many ways).... I will protest to have your effect minimized so that I may enjoy the game.   I have no interest in, by my online actions, limiting your choices.  
lazs

[Mooja]

The obvious object of the game in the MA is to capture more fields than the other teams to win a reset.  To deny this fact I believe shows a strong lack of intelligence.

Excuse me while I wipe the puke off my monitor but lazs2, you make me particularly sick.  It's obvious no one else in this game has your skill.  You've clearly prooved that already.  Now, perhaps instead of incessantly squeaking and whining about people trying to accomplish the goal of the game you should take all your skills and go to the dueling arena and fly with all the other people who want to play the game like you do.

[BlckMgk]

What I see here are two arguments, of how this game is percieved to be played.

Lasz seems to see this game as a Combat Flight/Air Sim, where is goal is fighter skill. Something more just based on a One on One kind of feel. No need to tell anyone where you're headed, just head on out... Goal is the shear fun of being able to out manuever and saddle up on someones Six and blast them to hell.

The other which is expressed by Shiva and Loser is that of a  World War 2 Sim, where their focus become that of trying to set goals, and accomplishing them. More organization, missions, with different tasks. Fun comes from completing missions and participating in something organized (kind of like a sport)

Both are needed, and both are acceptable just because we all pay our money to do what we wish.

Comments though: Lasz you keep mentioning "Why do you wish to bomb and take away the fun from someone else" (or something along those lines) Do you feel that person you're shooting down is having fun? Not trying to prove you wrong, its just understand that others have different views of "Fun"

I myself used to prefer the One on One, now I very much enjoy the Organized play. I take my one on one aggression to a First Person shooter, ala Ghost Recon or Ravenshield..

Last Note: Bombers are not extinict... just redefined, This game is going to change... and well Bases aren't ment to Be bombed effectively.. strat targets (when they become more important in the Mission Arena) will have much more value to bombers than taking out a base. Bombing start targets will give you a higher % of "Succesfull" bombing runs than trying to target 1 flight hanger.

All in all, find you're own fun and do what you want to do, but keep it to yourself :-D, (unless that is your fun, trying to recruit folks to your cause... in that case.. have fun)

-BlckMgk

[lazs2]

blkmgk... When I shoot down someone I am indeed taking away their "fun" by some peoples standards..  I don't think him and I feel that way tho... we have a common goal.. to kill red planes and... we have an even (or it is possible to have and even) chance to do so.   I can't ruin their fun by making it impossible for them to find me or to limit their choices.

When we fight we both know the score and the effect is immediate and localized.   When a bunch of guys all fight in a large furball of approximate even numbers... then it is just a series of localized combats with each piting his skill.... and stretching his SA, as much as he wishes....  If I die in a fur... It is pretty certain that it is my own fault and that I was defeated.... I wasn't grounded or blinded by som element that I have no interest in... I was defeated.

mooja.. where in any thread have I claimed to posses anything more than mediocre skill?   the dueling arena is... not what I want.  I came here for the massive multiplayer element.

one final note... I don't care if fluffers have a place in AH... I just don't want it to interfere with my game.   But how can that be?  Welll..... I don't care about "winning the war"  If the bombers (as many tell me) "win wars" then let em... let em bomb large cities into ash...  extra points for hospitals and orphanages.   I don't care... when a ountries large city is leveled.... that country "wins the war" and... hell.... they can have my perk points for all I care.
lazs

[loser]

Okay Laz you make a good point.

We should both be able to have our fun and it is not right for bombers to pork a base and make it unable for you and your kind to have your fun.

However Aces High has granted us more than one base per team.  And if the big bad buffs kill the hangers or fuel or ammo bunkers at one field you can always go to a different field (most times.)

Now if bombers go and kill your HQ and take away your radar you might say "bombers have made it difficult for me to find a decent furball." This is almost true, but only if the case is you hate everyone and refuse to look at your radio chat buffer.


Since 1.10 came out, bombers have had little effect on the overall gameplay of AH.  Even a huge form like the pic i posted earlier has nil effect on the opposing team(s.)

So I and my squadmates can have our fun, and you can have yours (maybe you have to switch bases from time to time.) You can still up from any frontline field and be furring it up within minutes, you can still windmill through the skies getting deadly deflection shots, roping for all your worth, and bouncing bogies till you cold heart is content.  You can even get another bad tattoo that says "I hate bombers."

But please, until you make a game that is just for bomber pilots, you must learn to live with us.  Aces High is not just for furballers, not just for buff pilots, and not just for tankers.  This fact keeps alot of us here.  The diversity of the sim is what counts, not focussing on one aspect of combat.

edit: small block motors kick arse

[Ecliptik]

I do enjoy flying a buff sortie from time to time, but yes, I think their numbers have fallen out because of the minimal effect they have in everything other than a large-scale attack on an HQ.  

I think the solution (probably much to the chagrin of lazs here) is to increase the number and importance of the "Strat" targets in the game - Munitions factories, radar factories, cities, infantry bases, etc.

Now, I'm not sure exactly how you'd go about it, but increasing the effect and importance of these installations would give players more incentive to go up in long-range buffs to take them out, and would also increase the incentive for opposing players to get up in interceptors to shoot them down.

[icemaw]

Originally posted by moot
the cargo, paratroopers or supply crates, should be added to the damage list.

 

  When is the last time you saw a goon shot up and still flying? If the plane splods 99.99% of the time its attacked why model damage to it contents?

[Shiva]

Originally posted by icemaw
When is the last time you saw a goon shot up and still flying? If the plane splods 99.99% of the time its attacked why model damage to it contents?

It's been a while, but I've managed to make a full drop with a goon that had lost the left engine, aileron, and elevator to a single pass by a FW-190 (well, the engine wasn't gone until about 15 seconds after the drop -- oil leak). From the number of hits I heard, I should have lost some of my troops, unless all the hits were on my left wing, and it just hadn't fallen off yet.

[moot]

Last time I saw a living damaged goon was last time I played.
It doesn't explode that easily, this is not an arcade game (else why model tailwheel damage?), nor is it the only carrier of cargo, nor has a reason not to include it in the damage list been told.
This would fall in the same category as modeling drop tank fuel ignition except that cargo is an element of AH's strat system.

[Bullethead]

lazs said:

no one is forced to participate in the gangbangs.   I think that a lot of guys that are in them now are new guys that are insecure about their abilities and want/need the safety of numbers.. also.. I think said newbies want to be a part of something and feel they are "contributing"...

I disagree with your assessment.  IMHO, almost every AH pilot, regardless of time in service and prior service in other sims, participates in the MA's pre-ordained gangbangs.  I sure do, and I've been flying since '94.  And I've measured swords with you on a number of occasions while doing so, both as banger and bang-ee

It also goes far beyond experienced, highly skilled players merely going to where the dar bars are, too.  In Rookland, there is an organization of a couple dozen squads called the RJO (Rook Joint Ops), the entire purpose of which is to plan and execute massive attacks to win the war.  Most Rook reset wins in 2002 have come as a result of this cooperative action, either during formal, preplanned operations or from RJO guys hooking up informally.  In all these RJO operations, it is the most experienced and skillful pilots who take the lead.

I think that the gangbang "missun" "capture the flag" is by far the most boring gameplay and that eventually, as skill and  experiance increases, the majoritgy of the new guys will be looking for good fights instead of the safety of killing a few buildings and maybe the odd lucky vultch.

I can't see this happening.  First, as I pointed out above, the old hands are deeply into taking over the world.  Second, they have no choice because if they don't take over the world, one of the other countries will.

I'm a Rook, always have been, always will be.  So naturally I've been on the receiving end of resets countless times.  And trust me, it's no fun at all to nearly ALWAYS find Rookland reduced to a handful of fields and permanently porked strat.  This is why a bunch of Rook squads formed the RJO, so that every once in a while we can turn the tables.

There's no choice in the matter.  Either we take all the fields or we lose all of ours.  There's no getting to some midway point and then just holding what we've got while concentrating on simple furballing, because we can't defend the entire frontiers.  As soon as we lose the initiative, we're back on the desperate defensive.

That's the lot of everybody who flies in the MA.  Either you play "conquer the world" or you get reset, or at least wish somebody'd hurry up and reset you cuz it sure sucks right now.  So basically, the only choice is to learn to like playing this type of game or quit playing AH.

And it is kinda fun, once you get used to it.  The MA right now is IMHO very like a scenario, at least for a Rook.  We've got to organize on a very large scale, across all kinds of squad boundaries, and accomplish a common goal.  Otherwise we get smoked.

Maybe we're just getting old.  Instead of being beau sabres living for individual combat and duels, we now like to be generals planning and overseeing successful campaigns.  Seeing that all come together is pretty rewarding and in some ways more difficult than learning how to beat a spit with an FW.

[icemaw]

Originally posted by moot
Last time I saw a living damaged goon was last time I played.
It doesn't explode that easily, this is not an arcade game (else why model tailwheel damage?), nor is it the only carrier of cargo, nor has a reason not to include it in the damage list been told.
This would fall in the same category as modeling drop tank fuel ignition except that cargo is an element of AH's strat system.

 Good points moot. Sure would like to see the drop tanks explode like that gun cam of a FWs tank going boom seen  on discovery wings all the time.

 How ever if the goons aint poping easy for you you aint shooting em right.

[lazs2]

bullethead... 'missuns'?  planned, organized?  how can you use those words together?   difficult? LOL... waste of time.   I think I have seen two resets since I have been on AH.   I couldn't care less about resets and "winning the war"  you haven't gotten more sophisticated you've gotten frightened and lazy and seek approval....  The younger newbies (who probly don't even read this board) will eventually wise up and want some action that isn't killing buildings or suiciding so that you and the "experianced" guys can come in after their sacrafice and vultch.   nuthin wrong with vultchin but... the patsies you use for the suicide jabos will wise up...

heck... getting a kill during one of the "missun' raids means being lucky enough to saddle up on one of the jabo dudz who doesn't auger or rip his wings off before you can get to him.   I can't imagine that those guys won't get a bit more skilled (and smart) in the coming months.   "missuns" are for the skilless newbie and the tired old vet who has lost his nerve... who thinks that anyone cares about his skill or lack thereof.    I don't mind the newbies... they will get better... it's the older guys who have lost their nerve that bother me.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[Bullethead]

lazs said:

bullethead... 'missuns'?  planned, organized?  how can you use those words together?

It's pretty simple, really.  All you really need are good SOPs for both the operational and tactical levels, a good communications plan, and pilots who trust the SOPs to do the jo, can be trusted to follow them, and who will adhere to the communications plan.  Then it's simply a matter of assigning squads to the various general tasks and letting them follow the relevant SOPs, so the overall leader doesn't have to micromanage 2 dozen whole squads.  This allows the commander to weigh events, pick the next target, switch squads from offense to defense, etc.

Each squad takes it in turn to provide the overall commander.  This guy then sends out a very short email that basically says who the boss is, the chain of command in case he disappears, which squads have which roles, and what frequencies to use for various purposes.  

I couldn't care less about resets and "winning the war"

When it comes right down to it, neither do I.  At least it's not my 1st choice of fun things to do with an MMP WW2 flightsim.  But the deal is, in general nobody has a choice here.  You either try to win the war or you WILL lose it.  You either be a gangbanger or you become roadkill.  That being the situation, there's nothing for it but to go with the flow.

That is, unless you want to become a lonesome, bitter pilot who so exults in his own misery that he flies only because he hates doing it, so he can then come in here and whine about it unceasingly.

[devious]

Dangit, got no screenshots of KG51 bombing the hell out of bishland here

Bombing got more complicated, but I still can hit a FH wih a 3-bomb-salvo and drop it (most of the time)

[Dingbat]

Loser,  I couldn't have said it better.  Buffs are all I fly cause one I love them, 2. I can't fight worth a damn in a fighter.

Originally posted by loser
Yup, bombers and their pilots are definately endangered.  

Btw lazs and others who dont like bombers because they "ruin the fun for everyone else."

Not saying that you dont have a valid point, but some people have fun doing different things.  

Do i enjoy seeing a base crushed as if a nuclear weapon was detonated?  Damn right i do.  To me, nothing is more exciting than a group of buffs getting a good calibration and flattening a base or factory installation.  Part of this excitment and "fun" for me includes disabling fighter ops from a base.  By ruining your "fun" i increase my "fun." Plain and simple.

I will readily admit though that the pre 1.10 bombing was lame and far too easy and un-realistic (knowing the fact that WWII bombers sometimes missing their targets by 5 miles or more.)

While at first i was discouraged and frustrated with the new bombsite (as were many others, some even quitting the game because of it,) I have learned to cope and even, yes, enjoy the new site.  It has required bomber pilots to coordinate their attacks and actually be skilled at what they do.  

We must travel and bomb in groups, and fly at low altitude in order to be successful.  That means more bombers flying at low alts.  More targets that are easier to kill for fighters.  More fun for fighters right?

In short, bombers are not an extinct breed, and never will be.