Author Topic: "Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8  (Read 3812 times)

Offline Urchin

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« on: November 24, 2002, 04:52:44 PM »
Ok, I've been thinking of making a post like this for quite some time now.  I really like all the LW planes, they have strengths and weaknesses that offset eachothers capabilities quite nicely.  

A good example of this is the FW190.  We have 3 different versions (for all intents and purposes, the F8 is still kind of useless).  The 190A5 is the most manuverable of all the 190s, but it doesn't really pack all that much firepower.  I always bring all 4 cannons, but the twin MG-FF not only lack in hitting power, they lack in ammunition load.  If you are an excellent shot, you might be able to get 4 kills before the MG-FF run out of rounds.  From that point your firepower consists of 2 rather useless MG 17 7.92mm machineguns, and 2 MG151/20 20mm cannons.  Even the Dora (in my opinion) packs more firepower over a longer time, with 2 Mg151/20s and 2 Mg131 13mm machineguns.  

However, the jewel of the 190s, as far as firepower goes, is the 190A8.  With a whopping 780 rounds of ammunition for 4 Mg151/20 cannon, and 950 rounds for twin Mg131 machineguns, you have a ton of firepower and quite a bit of ammunition to boot.  Alternatively, you can take twin Mk108 30mm cannon with 55 rounds apiece, which I use for attacking bombers but otherwise wouldn't recommend.  

My reasons for staying with 4 20mm cannon instead of 2 20mm and 2 30mm are pretty simple.  First, even if the Mg151/20 isn't the best cannon in the game, 4 of them will put a massive hurt on someone even with a snapshot.  Second, you gain a lot more firing time with the 4 20mm cannon.  The 30mm cannon have 55 rounds apiece.  I'm no expert, but they way I've figured it means you are shooting 4 cannons until you have gone through 220 rounds (assuming each cannon fires one round sequentially).  This means once your ammo counter reads 390, you are down to just 2 20mm cannons and 2 13mm machineguns.  That is quite a reduction in firepower, in my opinion.  Third, the ballistics on the Mk108 don't even come close to matching the ballistics on the Mg151/20.  Unless you are shooting at an extraordinarily close range, you will be hitting with either the 2 Mg151/20s (which aren't enough to kill someone in a snapshot) or the 2 Mk108s (which, since they kill in 1 hit anyway, is a massive waste of ammunition).  

With 4 20mm cannon, you will be firing with 4 cannon until your ammunition counter reads 220 rounds (plus it started 160 rounds higher, remember).  The guns are all identical, so you don't have to worry about different ballistics.  And since 4 Mg151/20s put out more than enough lead to kill someone in a snapshot, you really don't lose any firepower in the long run.  In fact, in my opinion, the 4 Mg151/20s actually provide MORE firepower than the other loadout.

Now, as far as using the 190A8 in the Main Arena.  There are 2 ways to use this bird to its strengths, in my opinion.  The first way is the way that most people seem to use it, which is straight BnZ.  Climb up to a comfortable altitude several thousand feet above any enemies, then dive down, and using the good high speed handling and heavy firepower, kill someone and zoom back up to safety.  This is a perfectly reasonable way to fly this plane.  It is boring, in my opinion anyway, and you won't be able to keep it up for very long unless you have a wingman, because the 190a8 doesn't perform all that well vertically, but it is a relatively safe way to get kills.  

The way I fly the 190a8 is totally different from this.  Lets start out by saying what the 190a8 can't do.  It really isn't much good for "E-fighting" because it has horrible vertical performance compared to a Spitfire, N1K2, and La-7.  It also isn't as good as the 190A5 or 190D9 for using the vertical plane in a fight, so if you want to E-fight in a 190 (which aren't as good as the 109s are at it anyway :)), you should pick one of those.  It isn't any good in our traditional flat-turning 'dogfight' because, well, it can't really turn all that well.  Besides, the 190A5 turns much better than the A8, so if turning is your thing, the 190A5 can turn well enough to lay a sustained burst on the target (which is good since it can't kill in a snapshot like the A8 can).

So... what can the 190A8 do well?  Well, a couple things.  First, it can change direction very well using the roll rate.  Second, and more importantly, it can kill just about any plane with a snapshot.

Ok, so how do we use these strengths to our advantage?  First, you have to be a reasonably good shot.  If you aren't a good shot, you won't make the 1 or possibly 2 'kill-shots' you can force almost ANY plane to give you in the opening seconds of an engagement.  This will lead to you dying quickly at the hands of an amused Spitfire or N1K2 pilot.  Second, you have to know how to GET that shot on the amused-yet-hopefully-soon-blasted-into-little-pieces Spitfire or N1K2 pilot.  And hopefully, I can show you how to do that.  It'll take some explaining and some horrible diagrams made in MS paint, but I'd like to try anyway.

First, you have to understand one thing about "ACM"  (that fancy pants stuff people try to explain what they do and why with).  There will be no talk of hi yoyos or low dingbats, just some plain english words that I hope can do the job.

The one thing is deceptively simple, but it is absolutely crucial in FORCING an overshoot.  Here goes, and I'll try to use as little 'jargon' as possible.  

Ok, the only thing you really need to know is what factors affect a typical 'turn'.  For this, you need to know the 'components', or parts, that make up a 'turn'.  The first is turn RATE, or how fast a fighter can get around the turning CIRCLE (which is, incidentaly, the second part of a 'turn :)).  Now, turn RATE stays fairly consistant.  It is affected by speed, but not nearly as much as the turning CIRCLE is.  A slower plane will have a smaller turning circle.  That is fact, that is gospel.  That will always be true.  A 190A8 going 300 mph will have a turning CIRCLE that is smaller than a Spitfire V going 400 mph.  Granted, the Spitfire V will get around its circle FASTER, but the distance traveled in the circle will be greater than the distance traveled by the 190.  So.. how do you use this to your advantage?

Well, you have to set up a situation where the Spitfire driver will have an 'easy' kill.  So you cruise around in your 190A8 at 5-8k, and wait for a higher Spitfire to see you.  Second, you have to take advantage of the overaggressiveness that is pervasive in our Main Arena.  I'll try to make a diagram for now, and throw a film up when I get around to making one.

Offline Urchin

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2002, 04:56:21 PM »
Here is the diagram.

This assumes that the attacker (a Spitfire in this case) will be traveling significantly faster than the defender (a 190).  You can help make this happen by flying lower than the enemy, as well as by diving below him at the 'merge'.

Offline Urchin

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2002, 08:27:06 PM »
OK, here is a short film I've made with a volunteer.  Thanks Wotan :).  It is only 80 something K, it isnt a very long fight.  It is actually fairly typical of what would happen in the MA.  You aren't going to have a long protracted fight with any plane in a 190A8.  You are going to have short fights that end with either you or him dead.

Offline Xjazz

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2002, 12:43:40 AM »
S! Urchin

Good one.

Excelent "A 'Primer' for new LW pilots" by Urchin you find here.

Offline Bluedog

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2002, 07:35:05 PM »
Excellant post Urchin   well written, and very informative.


Only thing I would disagree with is your non-use of the Low Dingbat..... a very effective, aggressive and somewhat deceptive move, that once mastered becomes an essential component of a pile-it's ACM reportoire.

;)


Thanks for the info on the A8, I have started to branch out and fly other planes than just the 109-G6 these days, and the 190 series is one I would like to learn.


Blue

Offline Gryffin

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2002, 04:58:04 PM »
Great post Urchin, very informative!

Offline Hawklore

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2002, 07:51:32 PM »
NM figured it out
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion;
respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2002, 08:41:41 PM »
Bluedog:

What is a "low dingbat"?  Is that another term for a "low yoyo"?

And how would you have used it in the context of Urchin's diagram (which looks like a rolling scissors to me)?  

Thanks.

- JNOV

Offline Seeker

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2002, 01:14:19 PM »
Nice work.

Offline Soda

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2002, 01:46:02 PM »
Success in the A8 revolves around a smart pilot and good SA flying.  Nice write-up Urchin.  I usually fly the 4 20mm options too, the 30mm's not only have different ballistics but also really add to the weight penalty.  The 190A8 is one of those planes that can be badly overloaded, and typically is flown as such.  Flying it as light as possible is really important since it is a much better handling plane when light.  This also extends to the fuel situation, where the 190 likes to have some/all of the AFT tank used up before working on the FWD tank.  It seem to help the balance, especially at the top of a zoom climb.

btw, the F8 isn't useless.  It weighs the same as the A8, has only the two wing cannons, but seems to have a bit better handling (at least I feel it does).  it also doesn't tend to allow someone to overload it quite as badly with heavy gun packages.  The F8 also climbs a bit better.

Always great to see good pilots relating their experiences.

-Soda
The Assassins.

Offline Duedel

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2002, 05:12:21 AM »
Urchin I love ur really good posts bout LW stuff.

BTW My uncle owns a little internet art gallery may I use ur high sophisticated paintings as a figurehead for our art website? :D

Offline Urchin

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2002, 12:00:06 PM »
Soda- I don't use the 190F8 very extensively.  From what I understand it was an 'armored' attack plane.  If it indeed has any armor, it isn't very effective.  A2A it isn't noticably tougher than any other 190, and I've been killed by 1 ping from field ack just like in any other 190.  

The ordinance loadout really kills it for me- 1 500kg bomb is nice, but 4 50kg bombs are useless.  You can kill 1 Flakpansie with the 500kg bomb, it seems to be immune to the little bombs.  I don't think I've ever killed one with anything weighing less than 500 pounds.  If it had rockets, I'd probably take the F8 over the A8 or D9 in the attack role, since it doesn't I'd rather have the extra firepower or speed.

Offline Wotan

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2002, 12:11:51 PM »
urchin it wasnt "armored" its basically an a8 with more bombs. The a8 isnt "armored" either. It just has more armor  then other versions of the 190s.

Same with the il2. When they call it "armored" they mean it was less likely to be brought down by small arms fire.

It still was shut down in droves. The top lw il2 killer had near 80 il2 kills.

No plane was "armored" enough to take 37mm hits, or 40 mm hits. Some were "lucky" enough to survive a hit but that doesnt change anything.

The f8 is the same as the a8 in ah escept dor the extra guns. once the bombs are gonna its an a8 with 2 x 20mm.

With out the extra guns it handles a bit better then the a8.

I think its a little faster otd but not much.

ofcourse you heard about the p38 that could cut down trees....oops I see you have that in your sig :)

Offline Wotan

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2002, 12:19:48 PM »
Heres the armor for the a8




Offline Wotan

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"Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2002, 12:25:11 PM »
Heres the 190f8

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20FW-190%20Fighter/Fw190F8_armour_draw.tif


its a dot .tif so just follow the link

You see the f8 has added armor plate on the bottom starting from the eng cowl till just behing the seat. 6 mm at its thickest.

8mm protects the fuel tank







« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 12:33:45 PM by Wotan »