Author Topic: "Advanced" LW Primer: The 190A8 (Read 3811 times)

Soda · « **Reply #15 on:** December 02, 2002, 12:50:53 PM »

Performance of a 2 cannon A8 and F8 are almost exactly the same. The difference comes when you add on more guns to the A8, which I don't think people realize hurts the performance. Once the guns are there you of course can't really remove their weight, where once the F8's bombs are gone it seems much lighter and more nimble.

The armour level on both birds really feel about the same, inadequate to face just about anything, but they both seem slightly more durable than the A5 when I've flown them and taken pings. Against 20mm though, or larger, you probably won't even notice the armour.

The 50kg bombs are near useless agaisnt Ostwinds. the damage model for the Flak is just plain wrong, especially for something with 1000 rounds in an open-topped turret. I've pickled one right in the turret and not even knocked out the gun. Against lighter GV's they seem to work a bit better, though even an M3 seems to be able to shake off the odd 50kg hit from above. Against structures though they aren't bad, 2 roughly equalling a 250lb bomb. For the money though, the 30mm's on the A8 give more total damage.

I flew the 190F8 a bit this last tour to refresh myself with the plane. It simply isn't a premium attack plane though, and if you don't want to be a strafer and fly LW iron then it's about the best you can get. Anything with US markings likely has 3-4 times the destructive capabilities in total plus is more survivable.

-Soda
The Assassins.

Urchin · « **Reply #16 on:** December 02, 2002, 01:02:23 PM »

Someone did do some sort of study on how much the 4 cannons affected the performance of the A8 (I think). I think it only came out to about a 5% drop in performance- which is hardly significant compared to the just about 50% increase in firepower.

I don't think a 5% difference is all that much, really. Even a 2 cannon 190A8 isn't going to perform with anything in the arena in a 'dogfight', plus you lose the A8s only advantage, which is enough firepower to kill a fighter in a snapshot.

Wotan · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2002, 01:50:53 PM »

well the f8 by the ah charts climbs a bit better from 7k to about 25k then the a8. (about 100 fpm at its highest)

at about 9k to 23 its a bit faster (5 mph faster at best alt)

There are subtle differences that arent easy to to point out.

Soda · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2002, 02:52:28 PM »

5% can be a lot with the types of numbers we deal with, but I don't remember it being anywhere near 5%, more like 0.05%. I have a list of all top speeds of all aircraft in AH, deck, medium alt, and high (I tested them all, same config, to 1mph in accuracy) and the F8 and A8 are tied within 3 mph at all speeds. The A8 was actually 1-2 mph faster at some alts. Also remember that, as with all AH planes, once you drop your bombs/rockets, all penalities associated with shackles/rails/racks, are gone. This isn't so when you've fired off your 30mm's in the outer wings, you still pay a penalty for the gun itself. This is why I've found the F8 to be a little more nimble, at least I feel so.

The problem really is, neither the F8 or A8 are very useful at what they should be relatively good at. Too many other planes are far more capable. Strafing is almost suicidal against GV's, at least with MG 151's, making both 190's unfavored. You're better to have something with 6+ .50's to ensure you land lots of hits and knock out something important, and the .50 is probably more likely to get a kill on an armoured GV anyway. Same goes for attacking structures, too many other planes are that much better. The A8 is a relatively good structure strafer, while the F8 actually can be useful with the 50kg (~110lb) bombs against structures. Problem is, a P-47D30 shows up with 2 1K's under the wings, rockets, 1 500lb'r under the fuselage, and 8 .50's and pretty much owns the A8, both as an attacker, and then as a fighter.

Unfortunate. Great discussion though, nice to see some discussion about these planes as they tend to be seldom seen or mentioned. My aircraft pages help pages had a recent update to the 190F8 and A8 so lots of what I've heard you say is right in line with what I was feeling.

-Soda
The Assassins.

SunKing · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2002, 05:57:06 PM »

I'm hooked. good read and pointers... ( shoulda been born with leathers on) been flying this bird so far this tour.. Good fun and a good change for the hurricane I used fly.

gofaster · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2002, 08:41:02 AM »

Ok, I've added this to my ongoing "Flying the Luftwaffe Planes" manual that I started by copying Urchin's post from long ago. I'll try to attach to this post (though the Word format may be too big for the BBS).

One tactic that hasn't been brought up is the HO. For me, getting a kill in a FW190A8 with 4 20mm and 2 17mm is best accomplished 3 ways: snapshot from the side from the target's blind spot; from below and behind in the target's blind spot; or from dead ahead in a HO encounter. All 3 ways will cause the victim much anger and frustration at being shot down but none moreso than the HO because the target actually saw it coming and did nothing to prevent it. At least with the first 2 methods of attack, the victim can take solace in knowing that he couldn't defend against something he never saw coming. Only 2 planes are a real danger to an A8 in an HO attack: the P-38 and the Me-110. Those nose-mounted cannons can get you before you can get them. Everything else will disintegrate in your field of fire.

When I engage a bandit, I go straight in. No fancy maneuvers, no fancy roll-outs. If the guy sees me and breaks, I let him go. I've learned not to try and turn a fully-gunned A8 because its capable of quite a nasty spin, even at high speeds. I just blow through, hit what I can, and get out, then swing back around and make another pass through the bait ball.

Usually, when I get killed in an A8, its because I've dropped below 5k alt and gotten caught up in a swirling dogfight. I haven't quite mastered the discipline to limit my attacks.

gofaster · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2002, 08:42:56 AM »

Manual file too big. Here's the text file version. It ain't pretty.

Elysian · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2002, 12:30:11 PM »

Someone mentioned the accel tests I did awhile back, here they are (I didn't test the 190f8, will do it later):

Tests were conducted offline with fuel burn set to lowest -- .001. All planes were launched with DT and 50% fuel and taken to between 4020-4050 ft. Aircraft were slowed to about 180~, DT was dropped and acceleration was timed with a digital stopwatch from 200-300 mph (TAS I believe, the red marker). The planes were then slowed back to 180~ and the tests were repeated using WEP.

I adjusted the head position in to the speedometer and then zoomed in as much as possible, starting the time when the indicator passed the middle of the 200 mph tick and stopping as it passed the middle of the 300 mph tick. Hundredths of a second were rounded up or down to the nearest whole second. Full ammo on all planes.

4k 200-300mph 50% fuel 190 accel data in order from fastest to slowest:

190D-9 2x20mm/2x13mm : 43s / 30s WEP

190A-5 2x20mm/2x7.9mm : 43s / 34s WEP

190A-5 4x20mm/2x7.9mm : 45s / 36s WEP

190A-8 2x20mm/2x13mm : 52s / 41s WEP

190A-8 4x20mm/2x13mm : 54s / 43s WEP

190A-8 2x20/2x30/2x13mm : 56s / 44s WEP

Bluedog · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2002, 09:43:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Bluedog:

What is a "low dingbat"? Is that another term for a "low yoyo"?

And how would you have used it in the context of Urchin's diagram (which looks like a rolling scissors to me)?

Thanks.

- JNOV

Ahhh, sorry mate, I was just having a bit of a joke with refferance to Urchin's terminology.
I appologise for any misunderstanding.

Blue

PS to the best of my knowledge, a Dingbat is a small furry creature, somewhat like a Bandicoot (small Australian animal).

I realise this isnt the propper place to be making jokes, and will try and refrain from doing so on this forumn in future to avoid confusion.

Hristo · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2002, 12:49:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
Someone did do some sort of study on how much the 4 cannons affected the performance of the A8 (I think). I think it only came out to about a 5% drop in performance- which is hardly significant compared to the just about 50% increase in firepower.

I don't think a 5% difference is all that much, really. Even a 2 cannon 190A8 isn't going to perform with anything in the arena in a 'dogfight', plus you lose the A8s only advantage, which is enough firepower to kill a fighter in a snapshot.

It was me, long time ago. Still, you have to keep in mind that 5% isn't that little either. 10% is a difference between deck speed of Fw 190A-5 and La-7

.

The difference mentioned used to be 3-5 % in acceleration and climb. Level speed was exactly the same. I suppose dive was even better with 4 cannons.

A note: if you go from 2 20mm to 4 20mm, you don't get almost 50%, you get almost 100%

.

Fw 190A-5 had 3% performance hit, only in acceleration and climb. Level speed wasn't affected.

Anyway, 4 20mm was always better for me in A-8. Note that due to no synchronization outer MG 151/20 have higher rate of fire.

As for fighting style, BnZ is great. The other option is high speed dogfight, a hybrid style I noticed with few players when I still was in AH. You do anything you'd do in a Spit, but stay above 350 IAS.

JB42 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2002, 07:52:23 PM »

Actual, the 190F-8 is the exact same plane as the A-5. Only added armor and ord racks are different. The 190G-8 is the direct derivative of the A-8

Hristo · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2002, 10:29:00 PM »

Umm, no, F-8 is a derivative of A-8.

G seriers are earlier than F series.

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 12, 2002, 11:40:15 AM »

I love the A8 for everything, in this sortie I started at 15k and ended up on the deck in vertical stall fights with the last 4 cons I bagged. I chose 100%, 4 20mm option, and 1 500kg bomb (I think I hit field dar). This sortie was probably the most fun and memorable I've ever had. After December I'll be flying again, (final exams now), and I would be glad to have anyone ride along that wants to watch. Hope I can be of some help to someone.

smflash · « **Reply #28 on:** December 12, 2002, 03:40:05 PM »

Im new to the game (never tried a flight simulator until now) and Im having loads of trouble with the fw190. Im flying the a8 since its the latest varient but found it difficult to fly as it stals esily and doesnt turn well. I cant outturn any other fighter in the main arena. Is this correct was the fokwolf this poor of a fighter?

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 12, 2002, 05:52:57 PM »

First of all welcome to Aces High! To answer some of your questions, the A8 is not the last varient modeled in AH. The D9 is by far a faster and better plane than the A8. That being said it may not be the most 'fun' to fly. The FW190 is modeled fairly well in Aces High and most people are initially turned off by it because it does stall easily with relatively little elevator input. I flew the 190D9 for an entire tour once (approx 30 days), and I had a blast. While it wasn't particularly good at slow speeds, it does VERY well over 250 mph and even better around 300-350 mph. My best suggestion for the 190 would be:

1) Learn how to shoot the guns. The German gun ballistics are far different from other planes, especially American .50 cals. They are worlds apart.
2) Don't use the 30mm much, if at all, they are TOO MUCH of a penalty
3)Fly fast first, learn to disengage and don't be afraid to run. But when running don't just dive straight away and pull out hard, fluid movements will allow you to build energy and lose less of it when changing flight path. This is very important in 190 vs Spit, N1k, P47, all good diving planes. If you hope to run away, start with speed advantage and don't dive straight down, a gentle downward slope is most effective.
That being said don't be afraid to exchange alt for speed. This is especially true in 190D9, which will capitalize on that. If you need the speed, dive a bit. Don't squander all altitude, but use a little now and then. In the right amounts you can gain lost advantages and give yourself opportunities to re-engage.
Don't be discouraged! That's the most important rule, you have to understand it takes time to get good, and it takes even more time to get good in a challenging plane (i.e. 190)

Hope this helps, best of luck and I hope to see you in the skies!