Author Topic: Euros: What do you think of the Euro?  (Read 1667 times)

Offline beet1e

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Euros: What do you think of the Euro?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2002, 03:13:13 PM »
Krusher-
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Can one of you guys explain why they dont want Turkey to be part of the European Union?
Certainly, Krusher. The most obvious reason is that Turkey is not in Europe. It's in Asia.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2002, 03:54:44 PM »
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Some folks say that the different member states have economies which grow at different rates, and that a single currency cannot work, without a federal government, and a system of federal taxes and grants. But then again, the wealth and prospects (and prices) of London & the south east are vastly different from those of somewhere like Jarrow, County Durham, meaning that the UK has more than one economy, but with the same currency.

The difference is, someone from Jarrow can move to London to get a job, and people in London can be taxed to provide benifits to people in Jarrow.

That doesn't work well across borders. It's much harder to move to France or Germany for work because of the language barrier (people in Jarrow can just about speak English, so I've been told ;) )

Also, how would you feel knowing your taxes are going to fund unemployment benefit in Spain or Greece, when you have no say in Spanish or Greek elections?

Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2002, 04:27:11 PM »
Pepe - Comparing the US to Europe as a model for social integration is not very valid, IMO. For one, they all spoke the same language and had a more similar background/history. Compare that with France, Germany and the UK which have had several very bloody wars and have great cultural differences.

Also, the US federalisation didn't happen smoothly - they had a bloody great war! ;)

Tomato - compared to the Tories, Blair has been great for Britain. And I'm not a Blair supporter.

Bounder - I generally agree. I think we should be in it. But joining the Euro is a one shot deal, as far as I can see. Let's make sure, it's the right thing. European diplomacy is all about swings and roundabouts - and the electorate is the last to see what trade-offs have been made or what 'scratch my back...' deals have been made.

Beetle - I was born in 1978, decimalisation was in '74?

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2002, 05:07:28 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
...guess that's something


roadkill .................... mainly
Ludere Vincere

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2002, 06:43:07 PM »
Nashwan - good points, and I am unable to answer at present. But someone in Jarrow moving to London would be difficult because they might not be able to get on the housing ladder. But the currency is still the same.

After looking around at some of the toejambags on our streets, I don't mind if my tax £ go to helping poor Spanish or Greeks.

Dowding - decimalisation was on 15 Feb, 1971. There was some leeway, and not every organisation went decimal on the day. I distinctly remember the Midland Red Bus company going decimal on D-Day+6.
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compared to the Tories, Blair has been great for Britain.
I don't agree with that. Margaret Thatcher was the best PM in my lifetime. But I agree that the John Major parliament from 1992-1997 was an unmitigated disaster, what with Norman Lamont hiking up interest rates to make the pound stronger against the German mark - at a time of recession! :eek: :eek: Then the Sterling buyback which soaked up a quarter of our gold reserves before we FINALLY got bounced from the ERM. The Daily Telegraph (not your favourite newspaper!) called that day Black Wednesday. And The Times (or at least the Sunday Times) called it White Wednesday - LOL!!! The sterling we ended up buying back was suddenly worth only $1.53/£ instead of about $2/£. What a freaking fiasco, to which Norman Lamont callously said "Je ne regrette rien". The whole debacle cost Britain something like £6bn. I had always voted for the Tories, but not after that. And it's against my principles to vote Labour. A vote for any other party is a wasted vote.

As a footnote, I remember very clearly the first ever election in which I voted. It was the 1975 UK Referendum to stay in the EU. I voted a big fat YES!!! - andthe nationwide result went 2-1 in favour of staying in. I knew nothing about the EU at that time, but its opponents were the far left Tribune group of MPs - Benn, Foot, Shore, Castle. A NO vote would have been a carte blanche for those treacherous politicians. No thanks, I'll take the EU, warts and all.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2002, 09:27:54 PM by beet1e »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2002, 09:17:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
The one thing it should be used for is defence. Yet we still rely on the US for most military operations - why is that?


Has to be a rhetorical question. You already know the answer(s). ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2002, 01:00:51 AM »
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Margaret Thatcher was the best PM in my lifetime.


Don't get me started. She was wonderful if you happened to be a stock-broker or even vaguely middle class or Southern. But if you lived in a Northern town that was supported by one industry alone (whether it be mining or steel), she did you no favours. The mines will killed and the British steel industry wiped out, and there was no plan to help the communities cope with the mass unemployment.

Where there were highly paid miners and steelworkers, you now have lots of drugs and social deprivation. Thinks have improved in the last few years - you've got lots of ex-miners collecting trolleys at your local tesco, or sitting behind telesales desks.

Thatcher taught Britain one thing: the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality. The twisted, dried up old squeak. :D

Toad - maybe one day it will become reality. It is something Blair wants.

Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2002, 01:54:55 AM »
I find it amusing that this "Euro" currency thing is being warmly discussed by my norhtern neighbours whom are refusing to embrace it :D

that is all for this mornings pre-coffee posting :D
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2002, 05:54:11 AM »
Euro Euro Rah rah rah :D:D:D:D

Daniel

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2002, 06:02:12 AM »
Dowding - I am not a stock broker. I was a computer programmer and in 1973, the year I left home to hit the (outskirts of) the big city, I was earning £1500 per year. I lived in a small bedsit in Croydon. This was at the time of the 1973/74 miners' strike, one of the years in which Xmas shopping had to be done by candlelight to save power, and the country was on a 3 day week. Ted Heath called a general election with the manifesto Who governs the country? He lost. Labour had the most votes but no overall majority. Heath tried to get Jeremy Thorpe (Liberal leader) to form a coalition, but Thorpe refused. Heath resigns. Wilson is PM, ran the Telegraph headline the following day. Labour had promised to end the 3 day week. The only way they could do that was to break the deadlock with the miners. Give in to the wage demands. Some miners got increases of £30/week – more than I was even earning at the time! At about the same time, I was given a performance review at work, and in recognition of all the (unpaid) extra hours I had put in, I was given a one-off payment of £25. It was a lesson and a half for me at the time, a naive 19 year old, in how the world works. Behind the miners stood an army of union workers, all demanding similar wage increases which they inevitably got. And the result? Just as Heath had predicted – rip-roaring inflation of around 25% per annum. The rate of inflation peaked in July 1975, the month in which inflation expressed as an annual figure equated to 30%.

Now despite the fact that British industry was antiquated and being run very inefficiently, the miners were quite resolute in their refusal to consider any productivity deals. The cost of energy soared, and the 1973 OPEC crisis had played a large part in keeping coal prices “competitive”. Throughout British industry, outdated, antiquated working practices could be seen in action. Labour always wanted to “create jobs”. So in a factory area in one of the nationalised industries which required 5 workers, the government might allow 7, and the Union would insist on 10. (Don’t get me started on Nationalisation!) With such trade union dominance, did we get better products and services? We did not. There was no competition, and no incentive to improve. Car workers were always going on strike. You had guys like Derek Robinson (Red Robbo) causing stoppages at the Leyland car plant in Oxford in demand of higher pay. Even the production line was sabotaged maliciously in their fight to get their own way. As for the cars that were produced?  LOL!!!!!! You have got to be toejamting me. Just how bad they were came to light in 1990, when I was doing some work for Honda in Chiswick – London W4. Honda/Rover had a partnership, with Honda building engines for Rover cars which would be badged as the Honda Concerto. Therefore, they had to meet Honda pre-delivery inspection requirements, not those of Rover. Well, the cars produced by Rover were so bad that Honda sent back about 85% of them some weeks, to have PDI faults corrected. They got pissed off when some of those same cars came back with faults unrectified. So then they got tough. Any cars with faults on their second arrival at the Honda engine plant in Swindon were sent to the crusher! That tells you what the Japanese thought of British productivity. If anyone was wondering what happened to the British car industry after the war, think on this for a while. There are other examples I could quote, but let’s move on.

In 1979 after 7 years as a computer programmer on ICL mainframes, it became clear that the way ahead for me was on IBM mainframes. I had no IBM experience, so what did I do? Did I dig my heels in at work and demand higher pay for doing bugger all? Did I seek to hold back the wheels of inevitable progress? I did not. With some difficulty, I got myself a job in America where I would be able to cross train using my existing programming experience to gain new IBM experience. I stayed there about three years and came home in 1982. I then had a good skill set and was able to ply my trade as a freelance consultant earning £400/week, rising to £1000/week in 1987, and continued to earn high rates until very recently when this wonderful Labour government decided to manoeuvre the tax goalposts with a new package of measures known as IR35. IR35 means I have to pay Employee National Insurance (10% - soon to become 11%) AND Employer’s National Insurance (12% off the top) on almost every penny that comes through my company. Talk about disincentive. That’s on top of 40% income tax, and a substantial payment for Corporation Tax, there has also been spiralling petrol costs under Labour (55p per litre goes as tax), a halt to road development (we’re paying more, but receiving less) and almost unimaginable decline of the railways of which you are fully aware. I arrived at the decision last year that it was no longer worth my while to continue in that line of work, and have retired from it. Those people I know who are still around have had to do one of three things: Take a permanent job, pile their income into a pension plan (risky, if you ask me) or work overseas.

Labour just doesn’t get it. They put up taxes thinking they’re going to get more tax, and tax receipts go down. Did you know, Dowding, that prior to 1979, the top rate of income tax under labour was 83%? Did you also know that, under Labour, there was a 15% Investment Income Surcharge? What that meant was that if you had made good, and were receiving an income on money invested instead of actually working for it, you got clobbered for another 15% tax, bringing to 98% your total tax take. No wonder people were buggering off overseas, and for a few years I was one of them.

Well, Margaret Thatcher turned all that around. She saw the error of charging 83% income tax, and over a period of years our top rate of tax was reduced to 40%. People with high incomes no longer sought refuge overseas, and tax receipts went up – to Labour cries of taxes rise under the Tories. :rolleyes: As for industries, yeah a lot of them got run down and there were 3,000,000 unemployed when I got home from the States in 1982. We’d had riots in the streets etc. People were so full of their rights. “Jobs for life”. I was unaffected by the unemployment – why? Not because I was a stock broker. Nope. To paraphrase Norman Tebbitt, I got on my bike. Or in my case, I got on the plane – PA103 to New York, and embarked on a self improver course in the University of Life.

How did Margaret Thatcher deal with industry? My favourite example is the Jaguar Car company. In the late 1970s/early 1980s, a brand new Jaguar XJ6 cost something around £20,000. And they were crap! The workmanship was horrible, and the reliability was laughable. After only two years, the resale value would have plummeted to about £5000. I drove a Daimler Sovereign which a friend had bought for less than £750 – and it was only eight years old. He sold it to a kid who used it for banger racing. Well, Jaguar had been one of those Labour instigated nationalised industries – part of Leyland. When it was privatised, they whittled the work force down to less than half of what it had been, and yet they were able to make MORE CARS and BETTER cars – the Jag series 3. What does that tell you? I’ll tell you what it tells me. And that is that more than half of those Jag jobs prior to privatisation were not real jobs! Same thing applied to many other industries, in which overmanning had been used to make the employment figures look better. So under Thatcher, all these antiquated working practices, overmanning and strikes (the bane of the 1970s) became a thing of the past. No gain without pain. I’m sorry that things were so bad in the North during those years, but the real reason is because Labour had allowed the industrial stagnation to continue while the rest of the world was getting into new technology. Had those same Thatcherite policies been allowed to be applied beginning 15 years earlier, I believe the transition would not have been so severe because it could have been done over a longer period of time.

As for the miners strike of 1984/85, when they tried all their usual heavy handed tactics to get more pay, and it didn’t work, I had a good snicker – in light of how things had been round the other way 10-11 years earlier. Just to illustrate how bad British industrial relations had been under Labour, and in post war Britain generally, I did some work at the Unipart plant (part of the former Leyland) in 1985/1986. As 1986 rolled around, the company celebrated that 1985 had been the first strike free year since WW2 !!!!! :eek:  Yep, vive M. Thatcher.

What do we have now? New Labour (Old Labour dressed up). Back to strikes. Back to tax and spend. Back to punitive taxation. Back, back, back.  It’s so bad that I give serious consideration to retiring abroad – probably France or Spain. So you can stuff New Labour where the sun doesn’t shine.

Well Dowding, hope you enjoyed the history lesson! To pre-empt your brother, I would add that my views do not necessarily reflect those of other Britons.  LOL!

Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2002, 06:29:44 AM »
Firstly, Swoop isn't my brother. Swoopy is my brother and I occasionally use his account, if I get chance.

Now onto the discussion. I'm glad you had a snicker at the miner's predicament. And their families. When both my parents were out of work (my father worked at a Coking plant and refused to cross the picket line - I'll come back to that) we had a great old time of it. I'm sure you'll snicker some more, you crass buffoon. Seven years old and spending time helping my dad collect coal from the sides of the rail tracks because it was rather cold; we had absolutely no money for fuel, you'll understand. I bet my parents found it hilarious when they nearly lost their home because they had, you guessed it, no money to pay the mortgage. :rolleyes: A lot of people did lose their homes.

Do you really think that every miner wanted to strike? If you do, you are a blinkered old fool. I remember the burnt out houses with 'scab' written on the doors. The intimidation was emmense. That sort of thing deterred my father from crossing the picket line, given he had two young sons. It was a merry old time. Heh, I still remember the rioting only 300 yards from my bedroom window. London coppers with no consideration for local communities. Ask any local policeman what he thinks of Thatcher's boys in black.

Now, the miner's demands were unacceptable - I fully accept that. But the destruction of whole communities, the mass unemployment and the lack of any support to re-train the community was the real killer. But then Rotherham, Barnsley and Sheffield are a good distance from Westminster... :rolleyes: Not many shrecking Tory voters, so who cares if crime soars and unemployment becomes the norm?

Some were lucky. My father was/is highly skilled and he found a job fairly quickly. Not so for the other families on the street.

As for the firemen. Blair hasn't given in - he's more or less crushed their stupid demands. Labour have learned it would seem.

And what are the Tories now? A bunch of freakish no-marks with vague policies, divided within, ridiculed without. Excuse me if I don't shed a tear for their plight.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 06:56:03 AM by Dowding (Work) »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2002, 06:41:50 AM »
Margaret Thatcher is the only brit PM hated on both side of the channel.

May she burn in hell.

I know that's short ,that's harsh ,rude etc ... ,but it's better what I will do myself to this scumbag.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2002, 07:37:43 AM »
Geez, Dowding - I only said I had a snicker - not a full blown belly laugh. That earlier strike was before you were born. I can tell you now that the reds of that epoch, led by Mick McGahey, did not give a flying diddly about what they were doing to the British economy, or to anyone else who was affected by their actions but was not part of their socio-economic group. So yes, I had a bit of a snicker in 1984. Boot was on t'other foot by then. :D I did not have a Union backing me in 1976/1977, a time when I started a new job in north London on a whopping £3500/annum. Inflation had slowed to a mere 18% in that year, BUT... the maximum pay rise I could expect was 5%. Therefore, I knew from the beginning that at the end of that year I would be at least 13% worse off - and things had been tight to begin with. That inflation, caused by the action of miners and their ilk, finished me off. I did not lose my home, but only because I had no home to lose. I lived in rented accommodation. No tax relief on that, unlike for newlyweds who could pool their resources and buy a home, get tax relief on the mortgage and each get higher tax allowances than what I was getting. Labour didn't like single people who were trying to make good. I had letters from the bank, threatening me with action under the 1968 Theft Act. My crime: "Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception", by which they meant that I had cashed cheques supported by my cheque card (£50 limit) without having the resources to cover them. So don't tell me about roughing it. I went freelance because the rates were much higher, and overtime was paid. I wasn't ready, but it was a step I had to take to keep my creditors at bay. I rented a room in a house in Raynes Park, London SW20.

Would you believe it, Dowding, a friend who lives in my road has just paid a visit. Steve M, who I met in the US in 1997. Well he made good - better than I did - and he's the son of a miner who used to work at Upton colliery near Doncaster. He told me much the same as you about the action of the Met Police. He was 18 at the time, and if the police saw him on the street alone, they would intimidate him by calling out to him: Hey, diddlyer... I know what it was like, and of course not every miner wanted to strike. The point I'm trying to make is that I am not a blinkered old fool - less of the blinkered! I could not keep a friend like Steve if my attitudes to the problems of the former mining communities were as negative as you perceive.

The thing is, Dowding, that you are to young to have an understanding of what went before - the Union wreckers of the early 1970s. If you had lived through that as I did, you would have a different point of view.

The Tories are nothing now. And I do not vote for anyone any more.

One last thing: I did recently view the film, Brassed Off. A sad film, but not without humour. Yes, it was a bit of a tearjerker. I stopped snickering many years ago, Dowding.

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2002, 07:50:51 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Krusher-  Certainly, Krusher. The most obvious reason is that Turkey is not in Europe. It's in Asia.


they are part of Nato... dosnt that count for anything :)

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2002, 07:58:19 AM »
Quite correct, Krusher - in fact Turkey is the only NATO member not in Europe or the Americas - I think. (?) But NATO is a military alliance, where as the European Union is more of an economic alliance. I should further comment on what I said earlier. Turkey does include an area known as eastern Thrace, which is in Europe. I think the boundaries have moved around a bit in the past 40 years, owing to various wars.