Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it..  (Read 10105 times)

Offline Rolex

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The Atomic bomb...why we used it..
« Reply #270 on: October 24, 2004, 08:50:23 AM »
~~~ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY
(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
{Previously posted quote}
Source - William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

~~~HERBERT HOOVER

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."

- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

Hoover biographer Richard Norton Smith has written: "Use of the bomb had besmirched America's reputation, he [Hoover] told friends. It ought to have been described in graphic terms before being flung out into the sky over Japan."

Source - Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 349-350.

~~~GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR
MacArthur biographer William Manchester has described MacArthur's reaction to the issuance by the Allies of the Potsdam Proclamation to Japan: "...the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary."

Source - William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.

Norman Cousins was a consultant to General MacArthur during the American occupation of Japan. Cousins writes of his conversations with MacArthur, "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed." He continues, "When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Source - Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

~~~JOSEPH GREW
(Under Sec. of State)
In a February 12, 1947 letter to Henry Stimson (Sec. of War during WWII), Grew responded to the defense of the atomic bombings Stimson had made in a February 1947 Harpers magazine article:

"...in the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision.

"If surrender could have been brought about in May, 1945, or even in June or July, before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the [Pacific] war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer."

Source - Grew quoted in Barton Bernstein, ed.,The Atomic Bomb, pg. 29-32.

~~~JOHN McCLOY
(Assistant Sec. of War)
"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

Source - McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500.

~~~RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)
On June 28, 1945, a memorandum written by Bard the previous day was given to Sec. of War Henry Stimson. It stated, in part:

"Following the three-power [July 1945 Potsdam] conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position [they were about to declare war on Japan] and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the [retention of the] Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

"I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program." He concluded the memorandum by noting, "The only way to find out is to try it out."

Source - Memorandum on the Use of S-1 Bomb, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 77, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 307-308).

Later Bard related, "...it definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn't get any imports and they couldn't export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in...".

Source - quoted in Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 144-145, 324.

Bard also asserted, "I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted." He continued, "In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb."

Source - War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.

~~~PAUL NITZE
(Vice Chairman, U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey)
In 1950 Nitze would recommend a massive military buildup, and in the 1980s he was an arms control negotiator in the Reagan administration. In July of 1945 he was assigned the task of writing a strategy for the air attack on Japan. Nitze later wrote:

"The plan I devised was essentially this: Japan was already isolated from the standpoint of ocean shipping. The only remaining means of transportation were the rail network and intercoastal shipping, though our submarines and mines were rapidly eliminating the latter as well. A concentrated air attack on the essential lines of transportation, including railroads and (through the use of the earliest accurately targetable glide bombs, then emerging from development) the Kammon tunnels which connected Honshu with Kyushu, would isolate the Japanese home islands from one another and fragment the enemy's base of operations. I believed that interdiction of the lines of transportation would be sufficiently effective so that additional bombing of urban industrial areas would not be necessary.

"While I was working on the new plan of air attack... concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945."

Source - Paul Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, pg. 36-37

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that was primarily written by Nitze and reflected his reasoning:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Source - quoted in Barton Bernstein, The Atomic Bomb, pg. 52-56.


 ~~~GENERAL CARL "TOOEY" SPAATZ
(In charge of Air Force operations in the Pacific)
{Previously posted}
Source - Herbert Feis Papers, Box 103, N.B.C. Interviews, Carl Spaatz interview by Len Giovannitti, Library of Congress.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #271 on: October 24, 2004, 08:57:06 AM »
Considering that 12,000 died just on Okinawa and 38,000 were wounded I dont think the 31,000 is realistic in any way. Also lets not forget that maybe 250,000 japanese soldiers and civiulans died too..  Compared to the very real invasion of Okinawa and the projected invasions of Kyushu and later Honshu I'm gonna say that the bombs were a comparative blessing for Japan becaue I simply dont give much weight to rumors of surrender feelers. Especially rumors of such when the wars bloodiest battles are going on at Iwo or Okinawa and Japan is not giving up and very real people were dying every day...    And frankly alternatives like lengthy embargos to starve the Japanese civilan pouplation (because the army and leadership sure werent gonna go hungry)  or soviet occupation of hokkaido or even northern honshu dont sound too great either.

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #272 on: October 24, 2004, 09:14:11 AM »
There is one point that confuses me about your post, Charon. Do you think that I live in Switzerland? If so, then that would be wrong. My father was a pilot in Europe during the war, his brother (my uncle) was a naval aviator during the war and retired as a Rear-Admiral (Upper Half) and I'm a Vietnam veteran.

(And I did live in the NW suburbs of Chicago many years ago...)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2004, 09:17:26 AM by Rolex »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #273 on: October 24, 2004, 09:15:53 AM »
Rolex how did you end up in Japan?

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #274 on: October 24, 2004, 09:29:56 AM »
lazs and Yeager pushed me out of a B-29.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #275 on: October 24, 2004, 11:49:37 AM »
he jumped... nobody pushed him.

lazs

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #276 on: October 24, 2004, 04:00:34 PM »
is it too late to surrender to Japan?
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Offline Glas

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« Reply #277 on: October 24, 2004, 07:45:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
is it too late to surrender to Japan?


Yeah, but not too late for an apology ;)

Offline Charon

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« Reply #278 on: October 24, 2004, 08:41:22 PM »
Quote
The other six 5-star officers (General Douglas MacArthur, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Omar N. Bradley, Admiral William D. Leahy, Admiral Ernest J. King, Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey. and General Henry Arnold) believed that the bombing was unnecessary.

I may be wrong in my opinion, but I do not consider them to be America-haters, historical revisionists, cowardly or stupid as others (not you) have implied.


I can provide a similar list of Admirals and generals who had definite opinions on the immorality and lack of need for the submarine and the airplane. Likewise, a list of military and political leaders who thought the bomb was a great idea. And any number of grunts, sailors and airmen who could give a **** what Hap Arnold had to say. The bomb was a paradigm shift that changed the game for major world wars. It overshadowed the contributions of the conventional forces these men commanded. It was also somehow more immoral to some of these commanders than conventional firebombing (though this was looked on distastefully as well) or starvation. I do believe that Japan would have surrendered after enough people had starved to death, or after a successful invasion. In each case the use of the bomb, and it’s morality as a weapon, would likely pale in comparison to both the civilian and military (in the case of an invasion) losses.

Your additional page of state department officials just serves to confirm that the decision to drop the atomic bombs was controversial. They state their opinions, with the generous use of “might,” “should,” “all probability,” “could have,” etc. Most of their opinions center on, “It would have been great if…” and in some cases contain a Western-thinking analysis of Japan’s dismal military situation that ignores the fact that the Japanese people did not really believe they were loosing the war, and that the militarist faction of the government (the dominate faction of the government since before the war) didn’t care. They believed that with added sacrifice Japan could ultimately win. If there was no militarist faction, and if the civilian faction and the Emperor were the only source of power (or even clearly the dominant source of power) then their arguments would carry more weight. The debate was even far from settled after the Hiroshima bombing:

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The Japanese Supreme War Council assembled on August 9 at 11 a.m. at the very moment when the bomb was being dropped on Nagasaki. Unaware of this disaster, the Japanese leaders continued to argue their conflicting points of view. Umezu asserted that the Japanese troops had not yet been defeated, and that the word "capitulation" could not be found in the country's military dictionary.113 The Soviet declaration of war was a greater stunning blow than the disaster reported from Hiroshima. The Council was evenly divided on the question of the terms of surrender. Members were not discussing whether to surrender but whether to insist on one or four conditions. Suzuki, Togo, and Yonai were for acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration, provided the imperial institution or kokutai was retained. Anami, Umezu, and Toyoda insisted on three additional conditions: voluntary withdrawal of Japanese forces overseas under their own commanders; no Allied occupation of Japan; and those responsible for the war to be tried by the Japanese themselves. Togo argued that the four conditions would not be acceptable to the Allied Powers. In the midst of this deadlock, one of the prime minister's aides burst into the room to announce the bombing of Nagasaki. An "impassioned" discussion followed and then the War Council adjourned, still split three against three. The 16 members of the Cabinet met in the afternoon. Again there was no consensus. Nine voted for acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration with a proviso regarding kokutai, four wanted the three additional conditions to be fulfilled, and three were undecided.114


http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:T7A0rEXD9b4J:[url]www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_aug01zum01.html+leaders+supported+atomic+bombing&hl=en[/url]

Perhaps if the Emperor had pushed for peace sooner, more aggressively and more openly the wishes of Grew or McCloy would have been realized. But the fact remains that Japan did not undertake serious negotiations for peace until after the second atomic bombing. While the peace feelers were likely more substantial than Rudolph Hess’, they were still only driven by the weaker faction within the government and lacked the Emperor’s firm, open and clear support (regardless of his private personal convictions).

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The only 2 military targets near Hiroshoma are/were the naval base, which is across the bay, and the Army facility on the outskirts of the city. The bomb was dropped on the center of the city and not near the military facilities. Hiroshima was virtually untouched during the war because it was militarily insignificant. It was a 'clean' target to measure the blast effect - a city at 8:11 a.m.; gone at 8:12 a.m. …

Targeting hundreds of thousands of civilians trying to survive day-to-day through a war their political leaders waged is defended as being acceptable in this case, but was not acceptable in Korea, or Vietnam? If Hiroshima and Nagasaki are acceptable and defendable actions, then it should be perfectly acceptable to destroy Baghdad.


There were only a handful of cities of that size left to be attacked, so it’s not like there were many alternatives. These were Kyoto, Hiroshima, Kokura, and Yokohama and Niigata. They had been spared the conventional firebombing fate of virtually every major Japanese city only because of their status as A-bomb targets. They were to be test cities for the use of the bomb with the aim of destroying the city, vaporizing people, destroying dispersed production and destroying military targets. Not much different from any of the conventional firebombing missions except that these would also serve as examples to the Japanese leadership and as test sites for the study of the bomb effects by the US. Cold perhaps, but then World War II was a total war that had already resulted in death on an enormous scale. As cold as the calculations to conventionally firebomb the other cities out of the war when high altitude strategic bombing failed for various reasons.

The Japanese civilians were not just struggling to survive as unwilling tools of their political leaders. They were actively supporting an industrial war and most were unaware that that Japan was even loosing the war (at least as badly as it was). Japan was an industrial nation that produced the vast majority of its war goods domestically, through a combination of major manufacturing plants and thousands of neighborhood shops. Given the dispersed urban, industrial nature of Japan targeting cities was actually more legitimate (and effective) than the “dehousing” and terror bombing campaigns in Europe.

Korea and Vietnam were not full-scale global wars waged by industrial nations that produced the majority of their own war goods. The strategic targets in these conflicts would have been in the Soviet Union or PRC. But, that would lead to global nuclear war, so MAD won out. To this day any country that would wage total war against a nuclear superpower does so with the knowledge that their entire civilian population (not just military centers) is 30 minutes or less from incineration. That’s a given, a fact of life for any true WWIII. It took the nuclear age for terror bombing to actually live up to its reputation.

The emperor himself places the bomb as the major, specific reason for the surrender. He cannot even acknowledge the dismal state of Japan’s military in the initial paragraph below of his surrender declaration.

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But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone-- the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of our servants of the state and the devoted service of our 100 million people--the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.


Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, or to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.


I personally don't think the bomb ended the war per se. But I don't think its use was unjustified either. It was a weapon  developed to perform a conventional aspect of war far more efficiently and it worked as planned. I think it did push up the surrender date by months and pushed the Emperor to make a forceful stand. I also think that the aternative pressures would have been mass starvation or invasion, neither of which would be morally superior (and in the case of invasion, criminal from a presidential leadership standpoint even if it was "just" 31,000 US lives or even 3,100 lives). I don't see a clear will to surrender until after the bombs, though the Russian developments were equally stunning with sevear neagives of their own.

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There is one point that confuses me about your post, Charon. Do you think that I live in Switzerland?


Actually I had that on my mind for some reason from a previous post (not just the Rolex mountain thing). I obviously was thinking of someone else and stand corrected. I currently live in Buffalo Gove myself.


Charon
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 09:33:33 AM by Charon »

Offline ATA

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« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2005, 12:40:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Interesting to note that all the famous generals, politicians and strategists that are quoted here as saying "Japan was ready to surrender anyway. We didn't need to drop the bomb, we just needed to ask them nicely." are all guys that would NOT have been in the invasion force hitting the beaches.

Correctomundo.
I bet after 4-5 years seeing guts and blood all over the place solders were full of energy to fight some more.To them finish the war as soon as posble and go home seemed like pretty good idea.

Offline Heretik

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« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2005, 01:00:30 PM »
They're lucky we stopped at 2.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #281 on: February 09, 2005, 05:44:30 PM »
Must confess that I didn't read throught the whole thread.

Ok, the US nuked Japan.

Facts:

1. Horrible deaths for a lot of civilians
2. Japanese high command decides that the US are capable of no more.
3. Another Nuke
4. Japan surrenders.

Out of time order facts.

a) US had roughly 17 bombs on the ready.
b) Estimated casualties from invading Japan and carrying on the normal invasion way were roughly 5 millions, - 0.5-1 allied, 4+ Japanese.
c) Okinawa had more total casualties than the nukes, so there was a logical base for part b)

Now here comes the creepy part.

There was an idea of demonstrating the bomb to the Japs by nuking an unpopulated target (I think an island was chosen for the job). It was however discarded, and the idea of wiping out a conventional target was favoured.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #282 on: February 09, 2005, 05:53:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Out of time order facts.

a) US had roughly 17 bombs on the ready.


Source?

I call b/s on that.
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Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #283 on: February 09, 2005, 06:10:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
2. Japanese high command decides that the US are capable of no more.



Really?  I thought that communications where so ****ed that they didn't really even know what happened until it was too late.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #284 on: February 09, 2005, 06:14:33 PM »
The date that a third weapon could have been used against Japan was no later than August 20.

Quote
Production estimates given to Sec. Stimson in July 1945 projected a second plutonium bomb would be ready by Aug. 24, that 3 bombs should be available in September, and more each month - reaching 7 or more in December.

Improvements in bomb design being prepared at the end of the war would have permitted one bomb to be produced for every 5 kg of plutonium or 12 kg of uranium in output.

These improvements were apparently taken into account in this estimate. Assuming these bomb improvements were used, the October capacity would have permitted up to 6 bombs a month. Note that with the peak monthly plutonium and HEU production figures (19.4 kg and 69 kg respectively), production of close to 10 bombs a month was possible.
 
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