Author Topic: 190-A5 vs La-7 (Read 1461 times)

Tarmac · « **on:** January 11, 2003, 10:44:36 AM »

Ok... I see a lot of people (mostly well-known pilots) landing kills in A-5s. I've done it myself on occasion. I really like the A-5 and wish I could fly it more, but I always seem to end up back in the Dora (I like 190s). Why?

La-7s. In the A-5, I'm totally at their mercy. If one decides to attack me, I'm done for. Can't out turn it, can't outrun it. Even if I use the 190's roll rate to scissor like mad, it just delays the inevitable. The La-7 either chops throttle or extends, coming back in a few seconds to finish the job.

The tactics I've used to counter La-7s include:

1. Only attacking when I have a large alt advantage (doesn't work often).
2. Only attacking when he's helpless (low and slow, taking off).
3. Attacking him only at higher altitudes. Unfortunately, most La-7 pilots do not hang out above 12k. If they do, they'll either fight me down to a lower alt (I'm not good enough to get the high-deflection BnZ kills very often, forcing me to try to saddle up), or just shoot me down outright. In my experience, the La-7's performance doesn't drop off that much at medium altitudes.
4. Attacking when he's distracted, on the tail of one of my countrymen (works best).
5. Attack only in a massive furball. I do this hoping that he won't bother to chase me, making myself the least juicy target by getting out of there fast. If he does give chase, I drag him back through the furball, hoping that he'll leave me for a better target or get taken down by one of my countrymen.

In short, if an La-7 wants me dead, I'm dead. He'll always catch me (if he wants to chase long enough), then out maneuver me. I'm sick of feeling like I have to run from any La-7 the moment it comes into icon range. How do some of the experienced Luftwaffe pilots deal with these darn things?

(I know there's no simple answer to this one, but any pointing in the right direction would be much appreciated)

Innominate · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2003, 11:39:13 AM »

At low alt the 190 has two tricks it can use against the la7.

First, Roll rate, you can change direction much faster than an la7, especially at speed.

Second, at low speed, right on the stall, the 190a5 will -JUST- turn inside of the la7. It's not really enough to kill him unless you're willing to fly in small circles for a while, but it'll force him to do something else.

Tarmac · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2003, 12:14:31 PM »

Would it be better to follow a fast roll with a hard turn, or a more gentle one? I usually find myself pulling heavy G's when scissoring, causing me to quickly burn my E. I'm thinking that maybe I should concentrate more on the timing of my rolls, not relying so much on high-G maneuvers.

Any advice on how to use roll rate to its maximum effect?

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2003, 12:30:03 PM »

I fly 190's quite a lot and have had some interesting advice form Wilbus on these planes. First off all you need to do two things in the A-5:

1) Hit Shift F to change the fuel to burn the AFT tank first. By doing this you shift the center of gravity, helping to alleviate some of the poor flight characteristics. Watch this carefully and when it's down to 25% or less, change it to Auto (the one with A-...).
2) Only use the 2x20mm option. The 2nd set of 20mm are Mg-FF, the same 20 mil on the 109E4, which suck. They only carry 60 rounds apiece and have a much worse flight trajectory than the original 20mm. Only take the 4x20mm option on the 190A8, since they are the same gun, have the same trajectory, and MUCH more ammo per gun.

As far as flight tips against the La7 go, you've got some correct ideas. You can attempt to stay higher than them, to get rid of their sheer speed advantage. You CAN dogfight with them also. La7's tend to be a bit aggressive and go for speed all the time. Use this to your advantage! When the La7 dives in for an attack on your 6, start pulling a slight turn from d1.5, and increase your turn rate until about d800. At this point use your great roll rate and reverse direction. The reason this works is the La7 is going very fast and in order to pull the turn he must black out a bit. He may not see you reverse and that leaves you in a great position to reverse again and take a snapshot at him. You will need a good burst on him to do significant damage, so don't expect him to fall apart from 3-5 pings. I don't have a lot of time in the A5, I mainly fly the A8 and next is the D9. Good luck and if you have more questions, post 'em, the AH community usually gives a good response.

Urchin · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2003, 01:09:10 PM »

Basically, you have to learn how to hit high angle snapshots. Thats the only way you can kill a Spit, N1K, or La-7 in a 190. Its also the only way you can kill a P-51 thats properly flown, but you usually won't run into them.

As far as I know, the Fw190 cannot out-turn an La-7. At any speed. You have to create an overshoot, which you do by placing them at roughly a 90 degree angle to you, and then moving when they shoot. If they are aggressive and try to yank back around for another shot, you turn towards them (nose to nose, think scissors)- 99% of the time they'll be going faster than you so they'll fly in front of you. Thats when you get your one shot in a fight. If you hit that shot, you win the fight. If you don't, any love muffin in an La-7 can wear down the best 190 pilot no problem, because the La-7 out-everythings the 190.

I've put up diagrams and films in the past of what I'm talking about, do a search on 'overshoot AND urchin', or something similar, it should come up.

Tarmac · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2003, 02:23:52 PM »

Thanks for the tips everyone. I'll work on this stuff and see how I do next time in the MA.

Duedel · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2003, 05:26:31 AM »

There's one trick when u have a La7 at ur ass. Fly level till La7 is 900 ft out then start a shallow turn. AS the La7 gains on u make the turn harder and harder (fly like ur trying to follow a spiral).
All the time look back! When u see the La7 wont catch ya and will overshoot (thats 99% of all the time i had a La7 at my back) start a little barrel role. When this role is timed properly u'll and up at La7's back and can EASELY kill him. But u only have ONE try!

humble · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2003, 11:47:46 AM »

As noted above...only real chance is an overshoot. A couple things to remember are as follows...1st you need to suck him in...2nd he needss to be going faster than you. Since you can easily outroll him and the guns on an la-7 are pretty mediocre outside of 250-300 you want to get him in tight ...I'd say 1.1 to 900 before you start to evade...simply start a somewhat gentle turn (30-45) degree bank...don't scissor or do the FW dance...wait for him to set his wings in plane to your turn...NOW chop throttle and reverse back Hard...the la-7 will do 1 of two things...a good stick will go up...either immediately or after his reverse. If your lucky he'll turn in plane with you...his slower roll rate and faster speed will force him out front as you reverse back into him again...stay of the gas if your not sure he's fast enough...obviously you want to stay as fast as you can...as long as you have the overshoot. Now, if he goes up your options are really limited, his goal is to stay behind your 3 to 9 line and come back in as you finish your break...if you see him go up early I think your best option is to pull up into him..on the gas with wep..if your lucky you'll get a shot as he tops out...if he's also of the gas you need to make sure you get your nose over and around...if you hit him first you have a chance...basically your looking for either a horizontal overshoot or a vertical /overshoot/angles shot...either way you'll get 1 chance unless your very lucky.

Tarmac · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2003, 11:51:28 AM »

Again, thanks for the replies everyone. Good stuff here... now I've just gotta practice it a bit.

BigMax · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2003, 12:32:15 PM »

One other consideration....

There are not very many dedicated LA7 pile-its ... My Meaning? Most vets don't/won't fly it. And, less experienced pile-its have trouble differentiating the 190s... Most assume all are D9s... I try to lull them into thinking fast and lazy turns... then hit the elevator hard and roll around to blast them as they go by.... Urchin 101 I believe... And NEVER EVER TAKE 4 CANNONS in it.... Older cannons give a huge performance hit with lil effective increase in firepower (Can't hit a moving target with all four).

If caught low, the terrain is your friend.... Augger deaths are fun to cause!:D

CYasUp!

Tarmac · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2003, 01:43:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
don't scissor or do the FW dance...

Anyone care to explain what the FW dance is? I assume it's something that involves a lot of rolling.

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:04:31 PM »

FW dance is lots of rolling and flipping on the back, a common defense that is more of a mistake than anything since it starts stalling and losing control rapidly.

XNachoX · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2003, 04:49:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DaLadyzMon
FW dance is lots of rolling and flipping on the back, a common defense that is more of a mistake than anything since it starts stalling and losing control rapidly.

You mean a snap stall? I use it all of the time to force the overshoot. If anyone thinks this is a newbie tactic you are dead wrong.

humble · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28, 2003, 12:00:05 PM »

The FW flop is basically "stick stirring"...the plane will bounce around better than any other...sometimes it's controlled ACM, other times just yanking stick around...either way the goal is to counter a guns solution by an overshooting bandit. Used correctly when you have a rapid overshoot with little angle off it's certainly a viable tactic....when you initiate it to early...or with an attacker with a high angle off it's just a waste of E. I often used to see 190's start flopping when I was 1.0 or even 1.5 out...totally useless. As for a "snap stall"...really no such thing fas as I know. You may mean an accelerated tip stall but you either stall the plane or you don't. Now a snap roll is a bit different....basically your making the plane fly a greater distance in the same linear space...also denying a guns solution(maybe) and increasing E bleed. The 190's best defense is it's great roll rate, I don't think actually stalling the plane is a good idea except as a last ditch tactic to aviod a guns solution...you may think your stalling the plane...but if your recovering in forward flight your really just on the feather edge...not really in a full stall....just great flying. Hard to tell a "newbie" to park a 190 on the edge of a stall:D

JB73 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2003, 12:30:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
The FW flop is basically "stick stirring"...

i disagree. not all 190 pilots "stick stir"

as stated above the snap stall is quite dramatic in the 190 especially the 190d-9. around 150 IAS pull up on stick to the back left about 45°... you will flip right over. if you are at least 200 AGL you should be able to recover easy. but during the few seconds you are inverted you have 0 control of the plane.

this IS done intentionally by some of us 190 geeks.

there are other aspects to it but i dont need to give all the secrets away

lets just say that you can stop almost completly doing this... then dive out and tag that guy that just shot @ you.

either way .. at NO time am i moving my stick in a dramatic fashion or unreal way. this differs greatly from the TRUE stick stirrers. the ones who get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message. i have gotten that 1 time messing around offline. never in the MA. (except maybe 1 time my first week LOL)

sorry if this sounds defensive. <> some of us just get a bit touchy about the "stick stirrer" comment... especially if we do something that took hours to practice, and has very precise controls. not random throwing the stick to and fro.

<~~> again and this has been my 2¢~~