Generalizing Europeans...

[StSanta]

Is not so damned smart. Sure, France and Germany might not support the US approach. But:

From CNN:
"Eight European leaders declared their solidarity with the United States in a statement published in newspapers across Europe Thursday. The joint statement is signed by leaders of the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland. Noticeably absent from the declaration are Germany and France. (Full story)

We've (Denmark) sent AWACS personell to help during the Afghanistan bombing, special forces during the outing of the Taliban/Al Qaeda, mine clearers and bomb specialists. I like our new government .

I hope it won't take Americans too long to realize that our support for this global cause isn't wavering and is *as strong* as just after 9/11.

F@rk France and Germany. Corrupt and dirty politically.

You (yanks) probably should hate us all, but some more than others

[SOB]

Shut up, you filthy leather-clad Euro trash!


SOB

[funkedup]

Eight European leaders declared their solidarity with the United States in a statement published in newspapers across Europe Thursday. The joint statement is signed by leaders of the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland.

Pretty classy.  

[BUG_EAF322]

Hey we sended some F16's btw.

So we can show how to shoot down a mig-29.

[StSanta]

Oh, we did that too. That's about the first thing we send.

Our new centre-right government is much more active in taking on our countrys responsibilities to the rest of the world.

With the socialists in power, they always side with the 'poor opressed proletarian'. We've seen more commitment form Danish side in one year with the new government than we did in 18 years with the old. The old government refused to let our coastal diesel submarines participate in 1991, despite NATO asking. Or was that in teh Balkans? Cannot recall. Anyway, a disgrace as it seems the US lack thee shallow water very stealthy small type subs.

F-16's are good workhorses. We should upgrade to JAS-39 Gripen though - much newer and much more capable, especially in the avionics/electronics department.

[Dowding]

Kissy-kissy, hug-hug.

At least the French and German governments are reflecting the consensus of public opinion within their own countries - afterall, isn't that what they are elected to do?

With Blair (a socialist, apparently), it's the complete opposite. The majority of the British public are against war without more evidence. Evidence which they say they have, but are unwilling to reveal. If they had this overwhelming evidence and revealed it to the world, war would be supported in most quarters and it would be game over. Instead, they say they must protect their intelligence sources. Although, if they revealed this information, wouldn't the regime be doomed from the ensuing war and nothing would be compromised? The whole thing is a little strange.

But it's good to see France and Germany marginalised for once.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Hey we sended some F16's btw.

So we can show how to shoot down a mig-29.

Just dont send your parachute battalion again, after the mess they caused in Srebrenica I think we'd prefer them to stay at home this time.  But thx anyway.

[StSanta]

Swoop, they did what they could. The problem was UN command refusing to let air support/reinforcements in.

Those poor Dutchies were left with no options. Even worse for the civilian population they were supposed to protect :/.

Peace keepers are just that - lightly armed in place to keep the peace. They have little chance vs. an enemy army with heavy artillery and armour. I have little doubt that had they resisted, they'd all have been killed.

UN command diddlyed up there, not the grunts on the ground. Their lives are pretty messed up with guilt and so forth because of it.

[straffo]

Originally posted by StSanta
Is not so damned smart. Sure, France and Germany might not support the US approach. But:

From CNN:
"Eight European leaders declared their solidarity with the United States in a statement published in newspapers across Europe Thursday. The joint statement is signed by leaders of the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland. Noticeably absent from the declaration are Germany and France. (Full story)

We've (Denmark) sent AWACS personell to help during the Afghanistan bombing, special forces during the outing of the Taliban/Al Qaeda, mine clearers and bomb specialists. I like our new government .

I hope it won't take Americans too long to realize that our support for this global cause isn't wavering and is *as strong* as just after 9/11.

F@rk France and Germany. Corrupt and dirty politically.

You (yanks) probably should hate us all, but some more than others

Look's like Hortlund is using your account

[GRUNHERZ]

Somehow I think that we shouldn't listen to war advice from the two greatest war losers of the past century...  In other words I dont give a damn what Germany and France think about war..

[bounder]

And they probably don't give a stuff what you think either Grunherz.

Dowding, are you getting a coach down to London on the 15th?

Might see you there!

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Dowding
Kissy-kissy, hug-hug.

At least the French and German governments are reflecting the consensus of public opinion within their own countries - afterall, isn't that what they are elected to do?

With Blair (a socialist, apparently), it's the complete opposite. The majority of the British public are against war without more evidence. Evidence which they say they have, but are unwilling to reveal. If they had this overwhelming evidence and revealed it to the world, war would be supported in most quarters and it would be game over. Instead, they say they must protect their intelligence sources. Although, if they revealed this information, wouldn't the regime be doomed from the ensuing war and nothing would be compromised? The whole thing is a little strange.

But it's good to see France and Germany marginalised for once.

Sounds like our govt. We have ships, SAS, commando's and fighter planes being deployed in the gulf now with the majority of the public against any military action.

 Tronsky

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by StSanta
Swoop, they did what they could. The problem was UN command refusing to let air support/reinforcements in.

Those poor Dutchies were left with no options. Even worse for the civilian population they were supposed to protect :/.

Peace keepers are just that - lightly armed in place to keep the peace. They have little chance vs. an enemy army with heavy artillery and armour. I have little doubt that had they resisted, they'd all have been killed.

UN command diddlyed up there, not the grunts on the ground. Their lives are pretty messed up with guilt and so forth because of it.

Anyone from Holland please stop reading here.





























I said go away.






































No, seriously, you will only be pissed at me, and it is much better for your nerves to do something other than reading beyond this point.  














ANYWAY
I disagree. The Dutch were armed, they had defensive positions. Heck they had a whole shrecking town to fall back into. They did not "do what they could", they could have chosen to defend that city and those refugees.

The only reason they didnt fight was because they chose not to. They were asking for airsupport but not getting it...sure. They were lacking heavy weapons and the Serbs had tanks...sure. But if they had been involved in a shooting war against the Serbs, you bet the request for airsupport would have come in a different light.

Bottom line is, the Dutch f*cked up, and they know it. That cost thousands of civilians their lives.

Alright alright, I know it is damn easy for me to sit infront of my computer and say stuff like this. And yes, if I had been on the ground in a Dutch uniform back then, I'm not sure how I would have reacted since I have never been in combat etc etc.

BUT
Do you think that these Dutch soldiers regret their desicion today?

Fight and you may die, run away and you will live. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all those days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance to tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they may never take our FREEDOM.

Hrm, sorry about that, but I think you know what Im getting at here.

To sum up this peculiar post, there is a quote from Shakspeare that I'd like to share with you all.

Then out spake brave Horatius, The Captain of the Gate: To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late. And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods!

[Swoop]

Originally posted by StSanta
Swoop, they did what they could. The problem was UN command refusing to let air support/reinforcements in.

Those poor Dutchies were left with no options. Even worse for the civilian population they were supposed to protect :/.
 

Well.......firstly the situation had been going on for weeks, Dutch soldiers who's tour was up were being shipped out and allowed to leave by the Serbs, but the Serbs wouldnt let any replacements in........so the Dutch battalion numbers were slowly dropping and no-one apparently thought this was a problem.   Well this seems like a no brainer to me, the Cloggie troops were Para's.......so if ya cant get em in by land then air drop em in, they're supposed to be trained for it.

When the attack started the Muslim fighters being protected asked the Dutch if they could have their weapons back that they had surrendered to them, so they could fight back.  The Dutch commander refused.  Now I'm not saying the CO should have issued weapons cos there would have been a bloodbath.....but there was a bloodbath anyway.

So the Serbs attack the Dutch positions and, get this, actually take 30 Cloggies prisoner and shoot dead another while the rest of em were running away.  

The BS about the request for air support being submitted on the wrong form is exactly that, total BS.  1) the damn Cloggie shoulda got the right form and 2) the potato peeler UN CO shoulda ignored the form problem and sent em anyway.  However (and it's a big however) there actually was an airstrike but the Serbs issued an ultimatum that if strikes continued then the Dutch prisoners would be executed and there would be further shelling of the civilian concentration.  Well, there was shelling of the civvies anyway so that isnt a reason.  As for the 30 prisoners, well they're soldiers, it's not like they signed up for a holiday camp.  The whole point of being a soldier is that you do the fighting for those that cant fight......and 30,000 civvies is a lotta people.

Now here's the clincher......the Dutch CO elected to hand over 5000 Muslims in exchange for 14 captured Cloggies.  5000:14.  And a further 23,000 women and children were shipped out on buses to execution sites, what is even more astounding is that General van der Wind's report states that on the second day (july 13th) "Dutchbat transferred 30,000 litres of fuel to the Serbs in accordance with Mladic's demands", so the Dutch were fueling the very vehicles used to ferry the civilians to the places of execution.   About 15,000 Muslim fighters tried to escape overnight and were shelled as they fled through the mountains.  Most of these people were never seen again.  Extraordinarily, the report from General van der Wind states that "a list of men of fighting age was drawn up on the initiative of the deputy battalion commander (Major Franken).  This was done partly on the compound itself".  Approximately 60 men refused to give their names, ultimately there were 229 names on the list.  At 19:30hrs on July 13th the last refugees left with the exception of these 229 who stayed behind.  In fact, these individuals were handed over by Dutchbat to the Serbs and were never seen again.

Then and only then was the Dutch battalion allowed to leave, abandoning supplies and weapons.

[Dowding]

hehe Bounder. Maybe I will, I've got some friends in London I haven't seen in a long while it would be a good excuse.

I don't know of a conflict in modern British history that had such an apparent lack of mandate from the British people. Nope. None. WW1 was enthusiastically supported at the beginning. WW2 was seen as necessary. Korea was seen as necessary. Vietnam was not and war was not given. The Falklands had great support. The Gulf had a majority support. Bosnia and the NATO involvement did. Kosovo did.

Yep, this war will be the first war in a hundred years not to be seen as justified by the British electorate. And that worries me.

I just hope they come up with something to convince me this is the best way to proceed.