<S> Americans

[Skuzzy]

Hehe..I hope mypost is not misconstrued as a complaint to the U.S. helping other nations.  It was not intended to be that.

I was strictly speaking to the perspectives each person views the overall situations with.  I find it interesting.

[Toad]

Naso, I haven't ever squelched anyone on this BBS. I enjoy reading the various viewpoints.

Well, I did squelch Weazel once for about 30 seconds and then I went back and unsquelched him. I rarely agree with him (but it happens) but I always try to read what he has to say. The childish name calling stuff always loses my interest quickly though.

I do, like everyone else, build a view of another particular poster by what he posts; by the "self" he builds here through his words.

Your recent posts have altered my view of you, that I will admit.

[bounder]

Originally posted by Dowding
Bounder - I probably would have too, if Hortlund hadn't turned his post into a swipe at the unwashed, intellectually inferior Iraqis and Afghanis. It just ruined his whole post for me and stopped any sentiments of 'yeah, that's right', dead in their tracks.

I must have been feeling especially like the archetypal Yorkshireman that day.

I'm a long way from being a Yorkshireman myself ('Posh avacado' will give you some indication of my status) but I recognise the punctual sentiment as very common round here, and a good thing too; after all that's one of the reasons I left the south in the first place. That and the beer.

Anyway yes, where was I?
Americans, for the Space Program
('weapons in space?' appearing in another thread entirely)

[Maverick]

Originally posted by TWOLF

Second, unless you are a Certified descendent of American Natives (less then 5% of the population of the U.S.) Then you are not an American.  You are a U.S. Citizen.  If your looking in the mirror and a White, Black, Yellow, or a Brown face is looking back then you are a European 70% of all U.S. Citizens (White) 20% African (Black) and 15+% from Asia, and the Middle East.  +/- 5% is pretty accurate.  Look it up.
I don’t care if you got off the boat 5 minutes ago, or 500 years ago your still NOT an American.  Your blood is as European, African, Asian, or what ever as the folks that are born on those continents.  
That goes for the “Euro’s” too.  Stop acting like children!
 
WE ARE ALL THE SAME, WE ARE ALL HUMAN.  There are bigger things in life then He said she said.   Seven Amazing lives passed from us on Saturday, from Europe, Asia, and Africa.  All seven Human.  All seven working toward a Human goal.  The quest for space.

I have a problem with your "native American" premise. There is no such thing as a true native American. All people on this continent got here by virtue of emmigration. It matters not to you is it is 5 minutes or 500 years huh. Well the first immigrants got here much more than 500 years ago but NO people originated on this continent. The same can be said for Europe as well. Now if you want to speak of Africa then we have a common ground.

As far as I am concerned a Native American is one who was born here of native born parents. If you can't handle that then too bad as by your own definition there is no such thing as a true native here.

America is a "melting pot" and was made the country it is by the blending of ALL the peoples that made their home and work place here. I am proud of that. I don't consider claiming that your ancestore were one royalty or somehow special makes you a better person. It is how you carry YOURSELF and YOUR OWN accomplishments that make you special. Your parents gave you your genes and may or may not have raised you. What you do with that material is what makes you worthy of respect.

I am a native American AND a citizen. I placed my self in harms way for my country and community because that is what I wanted to do and felt was right. If you want to consider me less of an American because I of mixed heritage Both  sides have at least a little European background) or that I cannot trace my family back 1000 years on this continent then you have to drop more than just 95% of the folks here. Frankly since my heritage is of little concern to how I live my life your standards of being a native are a little insulting and very arrogant IMO.

I realise you may not have intended this but that was the result as soon as I read your post, both times I read it.

As far as I am concerned, there is simply no such thing as a "pure" race on this little dustball we live on. We are ALL a mongrel mix somewhere in our background.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
Naso, I haven't ever squelched anyone on this BBS. I enjoy reading the various viewpoints.

Well, I did squelch Weazel once for about 30 seconds and then I went back and unsquelched him. I rarely agree with him (but it happens) but I always try to read what he has to say. The childish name calling stuff always loses my interest quickly though.

I do, like everyone else, build a view of another particular poster by what he posts; by the "self" he builds here through his words.

Your recent posts have altered my view of you, that I will admit.

Toad, I dont feel changed, I have always been an Amurrica basher, intending, with the word "Amurrica", the concept that I dislike some kind of attitudes the "ugly americans" have (remember that thread in the old days?).

Something has changed in a precise day: 9/11.

It was a shock for me, and I was worried for my cousine that worked in WTC, (she was at home that day, she was pregnant), I was shocked....

Has been a huge event, terrible, horrible, something that can change an entire nation.

The change I see scare me.

In the first moments after the tragedy I was "happy" to see a pride nation upping again after this "kick in the balls", heroes working hard to recover, the newyorkers looking straight ahead and raising again, I searched for sticks with "I love NY" or NYPD or NYFD signs to stick on my car or shirts to wear.

I tought "now it's the moment that the US citizen will stop and guess: "WHY?""

"Now it's the moment that from a tragedy, the humanity will find the strenght to stop for a while and ask herself: where I am going?"

I was wrong.

I was naive.

The reaction I saw was rage, hate, will to kill anyone, the US was transformed in a ferocious beast that was searching for a target to hit, the interreligious hate was growing.

With me or against me.
Black or white.
The extremes.

No good, no good.

I stepped back in a corner, astonished by this hate, the same hate, with the same magnitude that pushed those idiots to crash themselves and other thousend in the WTC.
The same hate that a lot of people in the world has for us, Western Countries.

Even if it's dead, the bastard has won, Osama has reached his victory, has catalyzed a reaction that can trasform the US in that evil entity he painted to his allies.

An entity resolved to use the force, directly, openly, to reach his own advantage, an entity that it's ready to call one of the greatest former allies, the one doomed to become "glowing glass" in the first 24 hours of the 3rd WW, "coward and traitor", only because is questioning the principle behind the preeventive war, or at least it's asking to do it in the UN egida.

I am not worried about my personal safety, no more than usual, and not for my country, since we are allies (even if someone it's questioning this, here), I fear for world's future, for our children's future, for their freedom.

This hate atmosfere has, historical, been always the best breeding base for new dictators, for new evil in this world.

In the last times I posted again in some of this "hot" threads, with the same tongue in cheek, or with the same sting-like attitude, maybe a little bitter than before, but the reactions are always rude, hard, sometime wicked.

I understand why, the pain it's still here in me too, but the hate...

No, I still cannot feel the hate, I cannot hate the Iraqi child, or woman, or man, cannot hate the Israeli or the Palestinian.

And I cannot (as I never had) hate the American.

When I post here, I imagine myself in the mytical "o'club", where you can discuss, even discuss hard, screaming each other, then, after a while, drink a beer together and laugh about something funny.

I firmly believe that there are values, basic values in the Humanity that are common, Love, good, family, will for a better future, friendship, values that are superior to ANY flag.

Values that I put above my country, above politics.

Values that are under a flag that dont exist, the flag of Humankind.

The flag of the entire world.

I am a dreamer, yes.

Jesus was a dreamer like me.

But the trick to change water in wine still fail me.

With this post I have gained for sure a lot of people that will have fun of me, but it's almost a year that I am willing to post something like this, and I am so stupid to post it here.

So, throw the stones.

[Toad]

Naso,

The obvious counterpoint to your....... assumptions....... is Afghanistan.

Clearly harboring those who plotted and executed 9/11, the US went after them.

Now look at Afghanistan. Are the common people better off or worse off than before?

And when the US troops finally leave, will Afghanis be in command of their own country, their own government and their own destiny?

Absolutely, they will. If not, it won't be because US soldiers "conquered" them.

And that... along with a lot of other previous examples... is what raised my eyebrows about your

Sure, mate  

1) NONE

2) NONE

and so on.

post.

We've made mistakes, most certainly. But any objective evaluation cannot show the post-war deployment of US troops in the role of "conquerers".

If you can't see that......

[krazyhorse]

ya know i usaully do not respond to these threads, i do not like to argue politics that i do not understand, basically meaning till you walked a mile in my shoes shut the fU%^ up, and till ive walked a mile in yours i will shut the FU%^ up,   hortland and ty for your comments  , stsanta and dowding bite me same ole toejam different day
" yawn " yall both are boring the toejam out of me,  maveric  your comment about native americans is BS and you know it, the simple thing is  i dont bash your country and your people so why must you bash mine?  you may call me small or simple minded  ... have you looked in the damn mirror lately,  and to any one concerned i drive around in my pickup with my rifle on my gunrack listening to Born to be Wild  on my 8track player

[Animal]

Toad, I wont answer your rethorical question, but here is something:

joke   Audio pronunciation of joke ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (jk)
n.

   1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
   2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
   3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
   4. Informal.
         1. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.
         2. An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.


v. joked, jok·ing, jokes
v. intr.

   1. To tell or play jokes; jest.
   2. To speak in fun; be facetious.

As for making it easier for you to evaluate my future posts, here is a tip: dont try. Ignore me. Because you obvously take this way too seriously and I seem to be too insensitive to care.

A joke I make does not say anything about my future posts and the way you have to evaluate them. If anything, evaluate them independently, my opinions on a subject do not dictate my opinions on another subject.

I'm not as one-sided as many here.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
Naso,

[snip]

If you can't see that......

Your question was:

"I'm looking for evidence of a powerful nation, a nation not involved in starting major wars, that left so many dead soldiers in so many different foreign countries yet sent the soldiers not a conquerers but as liberators.

Nations that, in the wake of the conflicts, left free and independent behind them when their troops left? "

My answer was:

None.

Afganistan?

I'll let you answer by yourself, with another question:

Why USA attacked Talibans and Afghanistan?

a) to free the poor people and act as liberators.

b) to search and kill OBL and his friends and act as avengers.

Pick one.

[Hortlund]

b leads to a.

********

[Hortlund]

Same with Iraq.

Kill Saddam, remove his thugs, take his weapons, avenge all terrorist acts he has been involved in

positive side effect:
leads to Democracy in Iraq, freedom for Iraqis, possible breakout of Kurdistan, no more embargo, start of foreign aid.

etc

Same with N Korea, Sudan, Syria, *add whatever 3rd world nation*

[Hangtime]

Naso.. in a nutshell; americas position, slowly so the the dimmer points of light out there can catch the drift..

americans are pissed.

it ain't a good idea to piss america off.

americans are pretty nice folks.. they super generous with aid and if you get their symathetic ear they'll spend lotsa time and money puttin out fires around the world and aside from using those disgusting smiley faces everywhere and always with the "have a nice day" toejam they seem to be tolerably ok people.

but; now we're pissed.

....ain't a good idea to piss us off. We'll park a carrier group or four in front of your bristo and pound the toejam outta yah.

I'm wondering how long it's gonna take for the rest of the world to figure out the one unrelenting, repeated and demonstrated so many times point of american diplomacy..

americans are chumps.. you can steal from 'em, lie to 'em, screw their women and call 'em names. But don't bomb 'em. That tends to piss 'em off.

it ain't a good idea to piss america off.

[midnight Target]

hehe Hang,

I would also like to point out that we don't need to be the biggest baddest one on the block either. History is repleat with instances of the US going toe to toe with powers that could have kicked our butts.  (Little War in 1812 for example, Spanish in 1898, Even WW2 which we were ill prepared for).

[Toad]

Naso,

Hortlund beat me to it and probably said it better than I would have.

Nonetheless the point remains. We're not out for conquest. We almost always leave places better than we found them when our troops arrived.

Beyond that, when everything turns to dung and the bullets start to fly...... even you know where the world turns for help.

I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.

But I do remember.

I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.

I told you long ago I was a near total isolationist. 9/11 changed that a bit. I still want all US troops within our borders as soon as possible.

[Dowding]

You see that's what I don't understand about you Toad. You've always seemed intelligent and thoughtful, yet you make a statement like this:

I really don't care if you don't like us. I really don't care if you continually suspect our motives. I really don't squelch anyone.

But I do remember.

I remember when I write my Congressmen and President. I remember to have my sons read some of this board; their day will come and I want them to realize what/who they may be spending/fighting for. And I want them to pass it on to their sons.

There are two conclusions that can be drawn from this:

1) You're trying to remember individuals on a BBS, that are more or less anonymous and you are unlikely to meet, so you can in some way single out those individuals for 'special treatment'. But that's stupid so;

2) You are trying to form an opinion of an ENTIRE nation based on the postings of a few individuals from said country on an internet BBS

No.2 is almost as ridiculous as No.1. America contains people of such widely varying views, and I bet you could find Americans who wouldn't be able to get on or even have a civil conversation. Don't you think that might be true of other countries? Therefore for you to seriously suggest that it would be worthwhile to form an opinion of a country containing millions of people based on the comments of a few individuals is bizarre. To seriously suggest thay your sons do the same is extremely bizarre.