What happens if you die?

[Wilbus]

To me you seam incapeble of maintaining a "professional" discussion without making personal attacks of some kind. Although your behavior is childish I will once again try and say what I want to make you understand.

This new TOD gives the players who have always wanted this kind of arena a chance to actually fly the way we want. Up till now, WE have been forced to play the way YOU (they whatever) want by ONLY having the option of the MA and sometimes CT when enough players online. There are few events and even fewer that most people can make it to.

So if we have been forced to fly this way, why shouldn't other people be forced to fly the TOD survival way? Of course, they won't be forced as they will still have the MA. The ones of us (quite many) who have longed for this type of arena have played it your way for a long time now.

"danger avoidance" skills that you've spent your entire AH career developing is now drastically handicapped?

Quite obviously you do not know me, nor do you know my flying so if I were you I'd chill down a bit and research some facts about me and my flying before you make such childish personal attacks again.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Wilbus
To me you seam incapeble of maintaining a "professional" discussion without making personal attacks of some kind. Although your behavior is childish I will once again try and say what I want to make you understand.

Make me understand? I understand fine, Wilbus. You want players to be recycled through training if they die too much. You think this will either be doing them a favor or doing you one.

 I don't agree ... it's a very bad idea. It doesn't enhance the game. The only thing it will do is "punish" players you think need punishing because they take too many risks in the game. It's designed to create an enviroment where only players who are like minded (as you) will fly and you have less chance of someone  ridiculing you.

Originally posted by Wilbus
This new TOD gives the players who have always wanted this kind of arena a chance to actually fly the way we want. Up till now, WE have been forced to play the way YOU (they whatever) want by ONLY having the option of the MA and sometimes CT when enough players online. There are few events and even fewer that most people can make it to.

Nice try. It doesn't cut both ways, Wilbus. Nobody can force you to take risks because they themselves do. You would like to see an enviroment where players are punished for taking risks. Sad, really.

Originally posted by Wilbus
So if we have been forced to fly this way, why shouldn't other people be forced to fly the TOD survival way? Of course, they won't be forced as they will still have the MA. The ones of us (quite many) who have longed for this type of arena have played it your way for a long time now.

"Of course they won't be forced since they will still have the MA"?

What part of "event players that aren't scared to take chances" are you not understanding, Wilbus? An increased sense of immersiveness with mission oriented goals and balanced forces incorporating AI elements doesn't only appeal to players that are actually afraid to die online too often.

 

Originally posted by Wilbus
Quite obviously you do not know me, nor do you know my flying so if I were you I'd chill down a bit and research some facts about me and my flying before you make such childish personal attacks again.

 Quite obviously you don't know me either. But you do need a thicker skin if you think this was nothing but a childish personal attack on you. The idea of recycling players through training because they managed to die once too often and trip a server setting that says they didn't live up to a "chicken chart" statistic is dumb. If that opinion hurts your feelings ... well, either learn to live with it or don't is my advice.

[Batz]

HT hasnt defined "training". It could be a series of recon flights etc.. Or you will only have access to certain planes etc......

Its not like you gotta peel potatoes and polish all the "ranked" players boots.

Even given the points above you'd have to die in 5 straight sorties. Staying alive doesnt skill, you think it does but it doesnt.

Theres nothing to "win" in AH2:ToD, no war to win no base to capture etc....Theres no reason to committ suicide. If you die every sortie then its not about "skillz" its about stupidity.

And if you dont like AH2:ToD then there AH2:C for you.

Karnak

You been complaining about how "tough" it is to fly a mossie since it came to ah. If its impossible to survive in and no fun I think I'd leave it in the Hanger. There are plenty of slower, weaker armed planes that do well in the main. Last time I flew a mossie ag and I landed 14 kills. I had 6 he had 8.

There were plenty of slow planes that had roles through out the War.

"Well my plane is too slo so we need a "rank" system that suits my plane preference."

Well the p51b is much faster then a g6 and most other axis planes that would be a historical match for it.

Making AH2:ToD a "Main Arena" with missions doesnt sound like a good idea to me. In AH2:ToD you fly to live and complete your mission. In that atmosphere "dogfighting" is a waste of time. Just like it was during the real war. Hit and run, engage from advantage, run when you loose it. The penalty of death has to be sufficient enough to put some "fear" into you so that you focus on surviving.

[bowser]

As long as the success of the mission, be that target(s) destroyed or whatever, counts as least as much as returning alive.  You guys seem to be accentuating the staying alive part, which on its own would make for a very boring, timid arena.  Just returning alive by itself should not be awarded if no damage was done.  

bowser

[Batz]

you only get rewarded points for a successfull mission. But mission points will be far less the the point penalty for death.

So there will be no "We just need 1 building to complete the mission so I will ride my bombs in and collect some points".

You will need to decide whether to risk death to complete the mission or whether to break off to survive.

This allows for things like "mission kills". Where 1 side doesnt need to shoot everyone down but force a mission to turn back.

To gain rank you need to survive and complete the missions, but survival is more important then just "blowing that building up".

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Batz
If you die every sortie then its not about "skillz" its about stupidity.

And if you dont like AH2:ToD then there AH2:C for you.

 Bull. In a competative enviroment where SA, ACM and luck itself are all factors, anyone can (and should) experience streaks of losses as well as streaks of success from time to time. Unless, of course, they haven't the inclination to accept the hard missions or to take risks that involve a greater chance of them virtually dying.

I tend to experience more of the former and less of the latter at this stage. I don't feel so despirate to improve my ranking in the game that I refuse to engage the enemy on anything less that significantly superior odds or advantages every time. Nor do I feel inclined to run from every single engagement where the odds shift (though I have, at times).

 Telling me (or anyone) over and over that this is the way AHII:TOD is supposed to be and anyone that doesn't like it needs to stick with the main arena smacks of presumption and arrogance. Seems we both can repeat this cycle until you either come up with something more conclusive or I decide you're not worth paying attention to anymore.

Originally posted by Batz

Making AH2:ToD a "Main Arena" with missions doesnt sound like a good idea to me. In AH2:ToD you fly to live and complete your mission. In that atmosphere "dogfighting" is a waste of time. Just like it was during the real war. Hit and run, engage from advantage, run when you loose it. The penalty of death has to be sufficient enough to put some "fear" into you so that you focus on surviving.

 You an olympic class assumption jumper, I see. The one and only objection I've voiced is one against forcing players to undergo training again if they die one too many times as an O-1 (the time when they probably will die more often than not unless they come into the game as "masters of avoiding risk"). You have no more idea of what "training" entails than I do ... yet, even if it doesn't entail having to fly in a controlled enviroment and practicing basic flying and gunnery with a trainer, it will obviously involve revoking some of the privileges the player recieved when he successfully completed training the first time.

The amount of opposition to this one reasonable objection I'm seeing from players who apparently can't abide those who take risks they shy away from has already reached the point of absurdity.

[Batz]

You dont know what "training" means, none of us do. So any whine you have about it is meaningless.

I don't feel so despirate to improve my ranking in the game that I refuse to engage the enemy on anything less that significantly superior odds or advantages every time. Nor do I feel inclined to run from every single engagement where the odds shift (though I have, at times).

Then why are you worried about what goes on in AH2:ToD? You can do all that in the main now. You can evenr create your own missions.

Telling me (or anyone) over and over that this is the way AHII:TOD is supposed to be and anyone that doesn't like it needs to stick with the main arena smacks of presumption and arrogance.

Arrogance? No more like common sense. You have a choice. I cant figure out why you would care what happens in AH2:ToD. Everything you seem to want is already there in the main. If its plane match ups you want then the Combat Theater is there. If its "organization" the the mission planner is there. As well as events.

Its all there for you. Why create another arena thats the same as everything else? You arent being "cheated". You can either play or not.

No one is telling you anything except if you dont like it you have other options.

Gentlemen realize there will be a lot of AI bombers & Vehicles controled by the host only. They will be what lead an attack type mission.

This realy is a must for the game because it is what provides targets so that one persone dosn't have to die for every kill.

The success of the attack mission can then be how well you defended the bombers, and not how many planes you shot down. I.E. Just chacing off the defender is a success.

As a defender your mission will be successful based on how well you stoped the attack. Think of if it in terms of 20% of the bomber force destroyed, the defender mission was a success.

Notice you didn't have to kill any real player on either offense or defense to succede.

With out this one concept in the game there is no way to put a hi penalty on dieing, and hence a desire to live. By simply adjusting the points per mission / points lost for death we can control this incentive to live. The back to training is needed for a 2nd LT death, btw a 1st LT 0 points would just return you to a 2nd LT, because with out it there would not be a real penalty for a 2nd LT death.

This is just a basic outline,im sure details will change on how you recieve mission points, like a bonus for killing a buff or fighter or high ranking player.

Also keep in mind this realy is a new game, and will be completly different than the MA, i.e. base capture,strat like the main,war win & reset,vulching, will not be there.


HiTech  

Theres a balance between those Dead Man,what your talking about is more akin to MA play, death in the mission has to have a large penalty to make back up. Want to have the feeling that you are forced to engage,but will want to live.

HiTech

posted by mwhun:

I still seem to be missing a key concept about this design. What is going to prevent the same folks that love to “pork and auger” from doing this in a detrimental way in the mission theater? Other than busting them down and keeping them at 2nd Lt. for their entire virtual lives –what other penalties will they face. I.E. What does having a higher rank get me that a 2nd Lt. would not have access too?

Hope that makes sense…

MWHUN: The hours of becoming a cadet and going threw training again, hence why you must go back to training. Btw training = not in a mission, and no one to kill.

HiTech

As you can see its not folks like midnight, wilbus, ghost and I that are telling ht how to run his game. These are things he brought up and we happen to agree with them. Whats "arrogant" is you telling us how we should play. You have all sorts of options. AH2:ToD will be the only option we have.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Batz
You dont know what "training" means, none of us do. So any whine you have about it is meaningless.

Sounds like supporting it is just as meaningless, then. May as well nix it since it's meaningless.
 

Originally posted by Batz

Then why are you worried about what goes on in AH2:ToD? You can do all that in the main now. You can evenr create your own missions.

 You're not getting the not so subtle fact that I've been an advocate of a more immersive combat enviroment with AI keeping things hopping 24/7 probably as long (if not longer) than you, are you? My being against recycling players through training has absolutely nothing to do with a desire to see things stay the same way.

Originally posted  by Batz

Arrogance? No more like common sense. You have a choice. I cant figure out why you would care what happens in AH2:ToD. Everything you seem to want is already there in the main. If its plane match ups you want then the Combat Theater is there. If its "organization" the the mission planner is there. As well as events.

Wrong. Arrogance is accurate. Telling me to hush and not make a negative critique of one specific part of something I, for the most part, look forward to ... is.

Originally posted by Batz

Its all there for you. Why create another arena thats the same as everything else? You arent being "cheated". You can either play or not.

 The only thing I don't like about the AHII:TOD proposal is the part where players get recycled through training. Why is this the essential element for TOD in your eyes? It's silly ... it's excessive.
 

Originally posted by Batz

No one is telling you anything except if you dont like it you have other options.

 One option that you don't seem to realize I have is the ability to voice an objection to forcing players to have to undergo training again if their points go to 0. Got any objection to that?
 

Originally posted by Batz

As you can see its not folks like midnight, wilbus, ghost and I that are telling ht how to run his game. These are things he brought up and we happen to agree with them. Whats "arrogant" is you telling us how we should play. You have all sorts of options. AH2:ToD will be the only option we have.

 I haven't once told you how to play. You can play AHII:TOD the same way you played AHC for all I care. What I'm protesting is your support of a system that punishes players for not playing the way you do to the extent of making them have to go through the training process all over again. Ridiculous overkill. There's plenty of motivation to try to survive without making the player rehash training.

Do you really think forcing players to do that will make AHII:TOD a success? It's not just about you or "many others like you" that it's all about. It's about making AHII:TOD appeal to enough players to be a success. Making them "start over" to the extent of having to undergo training again will hurt AHII:TOD. It would undercut a potential playerbase. A playerbase you would want others to believe is detrimental to TOD.

 Maybe it's easier to have the server "weed out" players who you feel don't measure up. Much easier than encouraging them to make a greater effort to maintain and roleplay their virtual pilots.

I see your attitude regarding such measures as more of a threat to the future of AHII:TOD than new players who die alot would be.

[Regurge]

The question is how historical do we want this arena. We'll have historical planes, missions, and terrain. Do we want people to fly historically too? With no death penalty, we routinely get fights with one or both sides gets completely slaughtered (this happened in RL, but not every time). With a death penalty there is more jockeying for position and running away. Not everyone agrees on which situation is lame or boring, but I dont think the arena will survive if one group is completely driven off. Hopefully HTC can come up with a medium that wil limit Arlo's suicidal tendancies enough to keep Wilbus from leaving

Just had a thought. Maybe have variable death penalty depending on mission. Have some typical missions with a high death penalty so you do your best to complete the mission but don't get yourselves wiped out. Others could be high risk "at any cost" missions where death penalty is minimal.


Karnak, the mossie is fast enough to be a pain in the bellybutton if flown smartly. For example you might have to plan a route to avoid radar coverage and fighters instead of going striaght in. If there's hi cons over the primary target go hit a secondary. As Batz said, you don't need "skillz" but rather brains (exact opposite of the MA).

The death penalty goes both ways too. Those G10s and D9s will be less likely to chase you down to the deck and halfway across the channel if their lives have meaning (Would be cool to have an allied scramble mission pop up if they do). Add short icons and no inflight radar and mossie survivability goes way up.

[Arlo]

Who says taking risks involves suicidal tendencies?

And not advancing is penalty enough, ain't it? No? How about just getting busted to the point of being a butterbar with no points but not having to go through the bloody training process all over again? No? Not enough sting? Masochism, anyone?

 Heck ... I'm not trying to convince HT to change TOD to the extent of running off Wilbus ... or Midnight ... or Batz ..... or the supposed legion of other like minded players who feel confident their numbers alone will support TOD. I just don't think certain measures have to be taken to extremes. Unfortunately there are some that seem to find such all too appealing for some odd reason.

Originally posted by Regurge
With no death penalty, we routinely get fights with one or both sides gets completely slaughtered (this happened in RL, but not every time). With a death penalty there is more jockeying for position and running away. Not everyone agrees on which situation is lame or boring, but I dont think the arena will survive if one group is completely driven off. Hopefully HTC can come up with a medium that wil limit Arlo's suicidal tendancies enough to keep Wilbus from leaving

 

[Batz]

The only thing I don't like about the AHII:TOD proposal is the part where players get recycled through training. Why is this the essential element for TOD in your eyes? It's silly ... it's excessive.

The answer is here:

posted by mwhun:

quote:

I still seem to be missing a key concept about this design. What is going to prevent the same folks that love to “pork and auger” from doing this in a detrimental way in the mission theater? Other than busting them down and keeping them at 2nd Lt. for their entire virtual lives –what other penalties will they face. I.E. What does having a higher rank get me that a 2nd Lt. would not have access too?

Hope that makes sense…

MWHUN: The hours of becoming a cadet and going threw training again, hence why you must go back to training. Btw training = not in a mission, and no one to kill.

HiTech

And you dont immediatly end up back in training. You only go back to training is you loose all your points as a 2nd LT.

if you are a 1st LT and loose all your points you go back to 2nd LT etc........

As HT said here:

Gentlemen realize there will be a lot of AI bombers & Vehicles controled by the host only. They will be what lead an attack type mission.

This realy is a must for the game because it is what provides targets so that one persone dosn't have to die for every kill.

The success of the attack mission can then be how well you defended the bombers, and not how many planes you shot down. I.E. Just chacing off the defender is a success.

As a defender your mission will be successful based on how well you stoped the attack. Think of if it in terms of 20% of the bomber force destroyed, the defender mission was a success.

Notice you didn't have to kill any real player on either offense or defense to succede.

With out this one concept in the game there is no way to put a hi penalty on dieing, and hence a desire to live. By simply adjusting the points per mission / points lost for death we can control this incentive to live. The back to training is needed for a 2nd LT death, btw a 1st LT 0 points would just return you to a 2nd LT, because with out it there would not be a real penalty for a 2nd LT death.

This is just a basic outline,im sure details will change on how you recieve mission points, like a bonus for killing a buff or fighter or high ranking player.

Also keep in mind this realy is a new game, and will be completly different than the MA, i.e. base capture,strat like the main,war win & reset,vulching, will not be there.


HiTech

But nothing is set in stone. I am not some n00b either. So I dont care how long you have wanted a "furball arena with missions" you will just have to keep "wanting".

You are the one telling us how to fly. You have options, from the main to the ct to events. Theres no alternative for those of us who want more. Simply supporting what HT has outlined is not "arrogance". I dont like the fact fact that the main is a 3 sided war. Anyone who dissagrees with that is "arrogant"? You know what folks would say if I whined about that.......?

"Go fly in rthe CT"

or

"Go fly another game"

None of that is arrogance. Its spot on. You are obviously hung up on this 1 point. If its not for you instead of going to the main or ct or another game I guess you can just whine about it. Is that what you want to hear? Is that "arrogant"?

You have choices, AH2:ToD is the only choice for some of us.

I dunno what to tell ya, some dont agree with your vision, if thats "arrogant", so what?

Go fly in the main

[Arlo]

You're rehashing the obvious, sport.

I may as well, too.

Forcing players to go back through training ... which entails no missions or opponents ... just because they died once too often as an O-1 ... is a mistake.

 Have a nice day. See you in AHII:TOD.

Originally posted by Batz
Broken record playing the "go play the MA cause HT's gonna cater to me" rag.

[Batz]

Glad I could help............

[Karnak]

Batz,

Tour 36:
Karnak has 37 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Mosquito Mk VI.


Care to guess what I would get in the P-51D or Fw190D-9 if I wanted to?

I don't have any trouble getting a positive K/D ratio in the Mossie if I use it as a fighter.  The free form MA allows that.  The structured ToD will assign , theoretically, historical types of missions.

It is all and well for P-51 drivers to be blabbing on to like it or leave it, but they will be flying an aircraft whose destruction is practically never the object of the opposing Axis mission.  Having a fast aircraft that isn't the enemy's target makes living easy.  Having a slow aircraft (bombers) that is the enemy's designated target makes it much lesss likely.  Having a reasonably fast aircraft (Mosquito, P-47, P-38) that has a ground attack mission and is the enemy's mission target makes it harder to survive.

If ToD is setup this way the vast majority of ranked players will be P-51 drivers due to the ease of surviving their mission profiles.  Constantly sending bomber and fighter-bomber pilots back to training while promoting escort drivers for their relatively safe missions seems a bit lopsided.


None of us know what HiTech has planned.  He himself may be quite some ways from finalizing this level of detail.  Getting wound up about it or defensive about it like it is a done deal is rather premature right now.  We'll see in eight months or so what HTC's solutions are.

[Arlo]

Wotan wasn't being sarcastic in the least when he replied:
Glad I could help............

Heaven help us if you end up an AHII:TOD "trainer". Maybe it'll all be automated.

Lesson 1: Take offs and landings.

Lesson 2: Autoclimb to 40k.

Lesson 3: Landing, refueling and taking off again.

Lesson 4: Diving from 40k.

Lesson 5: How to avoid being outnumbered.

Lesson 6: How to avoid being lower than your enemy.

Lesson 7: Flying in tight, large fighter formation.

Lesson 8: How to scream for help when in a tight spot.

Lesson 9: How to select targets that have the smallest threat.

Lesson 10: Staying close to friendly territory to avoid capture.

Lesson 11: How to bail out.

Lesson 12: How to man field guns and ship guns.

Lesson 13: Advanced FG and SG gunnery practice.

Lesson 14: Armored vehicles and their flight characterisitcs.

Lesson 15: Points and rank and how to throw it around.

Graduation test: Take off, climb to 40k in tight formation following mission waypoints, locate a smaller force lower than you at waypoint 4 and make an attack, whether successful or not, climb back to 40k and assess weapon and fuel load, if under 70% continue to waypoint 5 where there will be an even smaller, slower and less accurate force, repeat attack run, whether successful or not, climb back to 40k and assess ammo and fuel load, if less than 40% in either follow course to waypoint 6 (base) and land and debrief to determine if you have met your mission parameters. If you scored a kill, you graduate.

Good luck, we look forward to you coming back as a cadet someday.

On a more serious note .... I wonder what HT really envisions training to be like for TOD?