Author Topic: Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey  (Read 2071 times)

Offline Duedel

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2003, 04:49:38 PM »
OK Hortlund my last effort to tell u my peronal opinion:

There are

1. The ones that say "NO WAR" regardless of what Mr. Hussein does and the UN says

2. The ones that say "TRY TO AVOID WAR. BUT IF NO OPTIONS ARE LEFT WAR SHOULD BE THE LAST INSTANCE" (Thats my opinion)

3. The ones that say "START WAR NOW, ALL IS DONE TO AVOID IT"

The last 2 can have an interesting discussion here.

The things that really annoy me about the US government (and u) are that they dont accept different (Point 2) opinions or say that everyone that has opinion No. 2 has opinion No. 1 and is an enemy of the US (Mr. Bush: who's not with us is against us).

This is an imperialistic behaviour that can only be explained by plutocratic interests or overreaching patriotism. Both things are things I hate and yes I hate plutocracy very much cause the human being is worth nothing in it.

Edited for Mr. Nuke
« Last Edit: March 01, 2003, 05:02:40 PM by Duedel »

Offline blitz

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2003, 04:53:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Nope, dont want one either...I wouldnt trade my country for anything. There is no way I'll ever move to the US or any other nation. Simple as that.

BUT I do realize that the US are the ones defending us Euros right now, even though most of us doesnt want to see that or admit that. Heck from the looks of things, most of us euros want to pretend that there is no threat against us at all.

You, Blitz, Straffo, you are all doing your best to look the other way, pretend there is no threat, or perversly enough, you act as if the US was the threat. I have lost so much respect for you guys in these past weeks that I cannot begin telling you how much.

Because what you do is dangerous. And you probably dont even realize that. For some reason you dont want to realize that the bad guys hate us just as much as they hate the US.

Some of you personify all the worst things about Europe. Straffo is doing a he** of a job at displaying the French arrogance...but Blitz is the one taking the prize with his "Iraq is not a threat" mantra. For some reason he doesnt realize that the combination of mad dictator and biological weapons spells real danger for all of us...germs doesnt stop at borders. He also fails to realize that there are American targets in the middle of europe too, embassies, military bases, hotels...you name it. Any B or C attack against such a target would be just a big a victory for the terrorists as an attack on the continental US.

As I said, I have lost alot of respect for you guys since these discussions started on this BB, and frankly, you all just keep working your way down.


I got no idea why we're so dangerous?????

Just 3 guys telling others what they personaly think about a war against Iraq.
Didn't noticed Straffo, Dudel and me changed history lately :D

Regards Blitz



Quote

Blitz and Straffo...the dynamic duo that has created more animosity towards their respective nations than any dictator could have.[/B]


btw Hortlund, if ya judge over a country because of the personal opions of two single folks , nobody can help ya.





America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous

Offline NUKE

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2003, 04:56:27 PM »
"TRY TO AVOID WAR UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES BUT IF NECESSARY MAKE WAR" (Thats my opinion)"

That makes zero sense..... avoid war under all circumstances? That means "ALL" circumstances I assume, which translates into no war ever.

That's the problem with opinions like yours...... at what point are you willing to concede that war does become an option? Maybe another 12 years? At what point would you say war is an option?

Offline Duedel

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2003, 05:00:19 PM »
Nuke Im very sorry that my english is not good enough to make u understand it. I'll edit it.

Offline Hortlund

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2003, 05:05:44 PM »
Duedel, Blitz...

what if the alternatives are:

a) go to war before April, or
b) wait 8 more months

You think Saddam is stalling now? What do you think will happen in late March/early April when the weather sets in effectively making any offensive operations in Iraq impossible?

Why are you acting as if there was an infinite amount of time to play with? "give the inspectors 4 more months" is the exact same thing as saying "Give Saddam at least 8 more months to do whatever he wants however he wants to do it" meanwhile, the US will have a troop deployment in place that will cost millions of dollars per day.

Get this:
We know that Saddam has Bio and Chemical weapons...we know that.

We also know that the French sold uranium to Iraq in the 80:s. Uranium that has not been accounted for.

So ok, we know that Saddam has B & C, we also know he has radioactive material.
The only two alternatives right now is
a) disarm him before April, or
b) wait 8 months.

option b btw will lead to an end to the weapons inspections simply because the US cannot afford having all those troops in place, they will have to pull out, meanwhile Saddam will know that no attack can possibly come during the summer... The inspectors, no matter how many there are, will spend another summer in Iraq chasing shadows.

Iraq has had 12 years to disarm. What makes you think another couple of months will do any difference?

Offline Duedel

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2003, 05:26:13 PM »
Hortlund I'm with ya if u say Iraq is one of the most badest dictaturships in the world but its not the only one.

Its the wise the US wants to achieve its interests that makes me angry. Pressure, defamation, misinformation, egoism, imperialistic utterances all comes with an ignorance of many many things regarding the coalescence of the world (p.e. Kyoto protocol).

Furtherone besides the really good things the US has done in the past there are many bad things the US has done to gain advantage over the Soviet Union. Sometimes one could say the US now gets the payback for supporting idiots like Hussein and Laden but to say this would be (IMHO) disgusting cause many people died. Died caused by the US foreign policy and died caused by fanatic terrorists.

If it would be so easy to say: kill this Hussein and have peace.
No one can appraise what will happen in the middle east after an invasion.

I'm asking me why cant the arab nations handle this problem? Why the US want do to it so badly?

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2003, 05:26:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
remember one thing guys.  Remember how Bush Sr. used the media to fool sadaam.  I personaly have a hard time believing anything I'm hearing on the news about our troops.  AND - Who said we need turkey anyway?


Shhhh.... common sense is NOT allowed during Iraq discussions!!!!  :mad:


Unemployment does not silly effect German economy in way any rediculous.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2003, 05:43:07 PM »
The best way to end this whole affair would have been for every free nation to support the US.  That threat alone would have sent Saddam packing without any, or perhaps just a single shot being fired.  Thanks to France, Russia amd Germany, Hussein sees a potentiol way out and is remaining in power.  His Allies are coming to his aid in oblique ways and he is happy.

As a result Bush is going to have to force the issue and God knows what could happen next.  Thanks alot you Allies.   Might even get me or good friends killed because of your advanced virtues.  Idiotic and mornic.

No doubt France Germany and Russia's oil business dealings with Saddam have a hell of alot more to do with this than any BS coming out of the DisUnited Nations.

To hell with France.  We only liberated your sorry tail because we had to clear a path to Germany.  To hell with Germany, you ungreatfull damned barbarians.  Crushed you, Rebuilt your sorry sacks, protected your dumb hides from the USSR at a cost of billions and billions and many tens of thousands of lives and all we get in return is your anal grab for France.

You guys piss me off.  Sucks that my countrymen ever wasted their lives on your sorry hides.

Never again.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2003, 05:44:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Duedel
Hortlund I'm with ya if u say Iraq is one of the most badest dictaturships in the world but its not the only one.

Its the wise the US wants to achieve its interests that makes me angry. Pressure, defamation, misinformation, egoism, imperialistic utterances all comes with an ignorance of many many things regarding the coalescence of the world (p.e. Kyoto protocol).

Furtherone besides the really good things the US has done in the past there are many bad things the US has done to gain advantage over the Soviet Union. Sometimes one could say the US now gets the payback for supporting idiots like Hussein and Laden but to say this would be (IMHO) disgusting cause many people died. Died caused by the US foreign policy and died caused by fanatic terrorists.

If it would be so easy to say: kill this Hussein and have peace.
No one can appraise what will happen in the middle east after an invasion.

I'm asking me why cant the arab nations handle this problem? Why the US want do to it so badly?


The arab nations cant handle it. Its as simple as that. Any arab-arab war right now would create one gigantic arabian civil war. No arab leader wants that, so they are staying well clear of this one. Most Arab countries right now are pro-US...simply because it is a bad idea to be arab and anti-US right now. So they have to act US friendly. At the same time, public opinion in these nations are very hostile towards the west. So you have a situation where the leadership and the population are on collision cource in most arab nations.

Now I must ask you...why is everyone so hung up on the fact that Iraq is not the only dictatorship in the world? What is the point with that line of reasoning? I mean what are you trying to say? "There are more than one dictatorship in the world, therefore we cannot go to war against any single one of them because we cannot choose which one to take first"?

No Iraq is not the only dictatorship. It is one of the most dangerous ones however. And it is one of the few dictatorships that has the mad dictator + wmd combination (N Korea being the other one). It is also THE ONLY dictatorship where the mad dictator has used chemical and biological weapons against his enemies before. Iraq is a threat. No matter what blitz says.

So you dislike the way the US handles its policy. What about the French then?  You are aware that almost everything you said about the US applies to France too...right?

"Pressure, defamation, misinformation, egoism, imperialistic utterances all comes with an ignorance of many many things..."

That could also describe China, India, Russia...heck it could describe alot of nations. Why have you singled out the US as the object of your hatred?

Same goes for the "deaths caused by US foreign policy". Although I strongly suspect you are caught in some media version of this US foreign policy. But as you say, it is truly disgusting to say stuff like that...so you really should not even hint it.

Take a look at France and Algeria. If you want to hold the US responsible for their foreign policy, you really should hold France responsible too. The current situation in Algeria is a DIRECT result of French foreign policy. So is the war in former Yugoslavia. France and Germany are the root causes behind that one (for recognizing Slovenia)...yet I dont see that many people out in the streets chanting "death to France"...You know, this list can be made just as long as your list of reasons you dislike US foreign policy...so again the question arises, why have you singled out the US as the object of your hatred?

Its absurd! Especially now when the US is carrying the entire burden of the war against terror alone...while nations like France and Germany are doing all they can to make the war tougher and more dangerous for the US. The sad part is, France and Germany are doing this out of economic reasons, and they are doing it against the nation that is protecting all of us right now. Because as I said, the terrorists see us as just as legitimate targets as the US. They are fighting against the western world, our way of life. ...and even if they didnt...Bio weapons dont stop at borders.

Offline Duedel

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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2003, 05:51:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
The best way to end this whole affair would have been for every free nation to support the US.  That threat alone would have sent Saddam packing without any, or perhaps just a single shot being fired.  Thanks to France, Russia amd Germany, Hussein sees a potentiol way out and is remaining in power.  His Allies are coming to his aid in oblique ways and he is happy.

As a result Bush is going to have to force the issue and God knows what could happen next.  Thanks alot you Allies.   Might even get me or good friends killed because of your advanced virtues.  Idiotic and mornic.

No doubt France Germany and Russia's oil business dealings with Saddam have a hell of alot more to do with this than any BS coming out of the DisUnited Nations.

To hell with France.  We only liberated your sorry tail because we had to clear a path to Germany.  To hell with Germany, you ungreatfull damned barbarians.  Crushed you, Rebuilt your sorry sacks, protected your dumb hides from the USSR at a cost of billions and billions and many tens of thousands of lives and all we get in return is your anal grab for France.

You guys piss me off.  Sucks that my countrymen ever wasted their lives on your sorry hides.

Never again.


Yeager this is so pathetic it could serve as a good plot for the next speech of Mr. Rumsfeld.

Offline NUKE

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2003, 06:10:03 PM »
I love these anti-US guys from Germany and France, how exactly does the US stance on Iraq concern or affect you? Why do you care what the US does in Iraq?

Are you concerned for the people of Iraq?

I'm waiting for your answers....... ready to tear you up with simple logic and basic common sense, so please answer.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2003, 06:12:41 PM by NUKE »

Offline babek-

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2003, 06:38:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Get this:
We know that Saddam has Bio and Chemical weapons...we know that.


I have no doubt about it.

Who else than the USA should know that mad dog Saddam has a large arsenal of chemical weapons?

As the man who has been the US-ambassador in Iraq until the Kuwait crisis said, the USA itself has delivered chemical weapons  to Iraq so they could use them against the Iranian forces which were breaking through iraqui lines.

The 125 Thousand iranian soldiers who were killed by gas weapons died the same way  as the iraqui kurds did in halabja because the kurds were defined as enemies collaborating with Iran.

So its ridiculous if the USA blame Saddam for tehe massacre on the kurdish civilians, because the gave him the weapons whoi killed these innocents.

When Iran tried to get a protest and sanctions through the UN it was the veto of the USA who prevented that Iraq was blamed for using chemical weapons - which is forbidden by the Geneva-protocol.

But its also a fact that today no direct neighbor of Iraq fears Saddam. Syria, Iran, Saudia Arabia and Turkey met in Ankara to discuss how the US-attack could be prevented.

A war will be a great danger for the region. There is no doubt that Saddam will we wiped out - but what comes next ?

The iraqui Kurds, Shiites and Sunnites are ready for a civil war.

The Turks are ready to intervene in northern iraq to "help the turkish minority against kurdish terrorism".

Iran is ready to intervene in order to secure the most holy shiite places which are in Iraq.

The arabs are ready to fight the non-arab nations - like Iran or Turkey.

Afghanistan is a good example how a so called victory could fail. Today Afghanistan is in the same chaos as in the last decades an there is no hope for this country for a very long time.

The same will happen in Iraq. It will get the same democracy which was promised in the propaganda-phase to Kuwait.

Simply none.

So its good that so many nations and people oppose the war which will nevertheless come.

Offline blitz

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Oh,Oh, poor Mr. Rumbsfeld -> Turkey
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2003, 06:47:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
The best way to end this whole affair would have been for every free nation to support the US.  That threat alone would have sent Saddam packing without any, or perhaps just a single shot being fired.  Thanks to France, Russia amd Germany, Hussein sees a potentiol way out and is remaining in power.  His Allies are coming to his aid in oblique ways and he is happy.

As a result Bush is going to have to force the issue and God knows what could happen next.  Thanks alot you Allies.   Might even get me or good friends killed because of your advanced virtues.  Idiotic and mornic.

No doubt France Germany and Russia's oil business dealings with Saddam have a hell of alot more to do with this than any BS coming out of the DisUnited Nations.

To hell with France.  We only liberated your sorry tail because we had to clear a path to Germany.  To hell with Germany, you ungreatfull damned barbarians.  Crushed you, Rebuilt your sorry sacks, protected your dumb hides from the USSR at a cost of billions and billions and many tens of thousands of lives and all we get in return is your anal grab for France.

You guys piss me off.  Sucks that my countrymen ever wasted their lives on your sorry hides.

Never again.


To whom ya wanna sell your goods then yeager?

It's all about freedom and democracy, rofl .

Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous

Offline Udie

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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2003, 07:10:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
To whom ya wanna sell your goods then yeager?

It's all about freedom and democracy, rofl .

Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous


Do you honestly think we need to sell our goods to your pathetic ingrate country?  We have enough resourses here to keep to ourselves,  something I hope we will do once we end the terrorist scourge.  Let russia rebuild and then let em take your sorry assed country, probably what we should have done to begin with.  At least countries like Polland and other former soviet states understand what America did for Europe.

  Yeager's post is spot on target.

Offline blitz

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« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2003, 07:17:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
Do you honestly think we need to sell our goods to your pathetic ingrate country?  We have enough resourses here to keep to ourselves,  something I hope we will do once we end the terrorist scourge.  Let russia rebuild and then let em take your sorry assed country, probably what we should have done to begin with.  At least countries like Polland and other former soviet states understand what America did for Europe.

  Yeager's post is spot on target.



The time of peasants are gone udie, we write 2003, it's the decade of globalism.
Every developped nation need the others to trade with, even the mighty USA.

Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous