Author Topic: US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war (Read 3705 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #60 on:** March 04, 2003, 03:05:32 PM »

Germany...the buffert zone between the USSR and the USA.

I was this close >< to use one of those braindead rolleye-emoticons now.

Ping · « **Reply #61 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:32:52 PM »

No Judge, It was a buffer between Western Europe and the USSR.

Or did you even bother reading it? Did you look up the links?

Funked: It was all about stopping any Communist expansion into western Europe. Germany was on the Border and it was there that the line was drawn. CIA papers reveal that Berlin was a treasure trove of info and the means of getting intel on Soviet plans. Government papers
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/documents/episode-9/04-01.htm
show that Nukes would have been used to stop any large scale attack.
It is your own Governments information showing this. What more can I say? Germany was a Buffer zone in any military sense.

Ping · « **Reply #62 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:39:14 PM »

http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/17240/art-3.html
The contrast between the attitudes of the occupying powers marked the beginning of Berlin's role as a metaphor for the Cold War division of Europe as a whole. West Berlin itself became a haven for the stream of refugees that poured across the intracity sector boundaries until the Wall went up in 1961. All this only enhanced Berlin's value as a symbol of the United States' determination to maintain a presence on the Continent of Europe. Not incidentally, Berlin's status as an outpost deep inside Soviet-occupied territory and a gateway to and from East Germany made it immensely valuable as an intelligence base. As the lines were drawn in the postwar confrontation that ushered in the Cold War, these symbolic, political, and strategic considerations emerged as factors of permanent importance to US policy toward Berlin, Germany, and Europe.

Mini D · « **Reply #63 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:42:32 PM »

BTW, the irony of anyone saying "Prove it" in regards to Iraq, yet blindly accepting the original "news story" as true is duly noted.

Nah... no bias there.

MiniD

Toad · « **Reply #64 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:47:15 PM »

So what's your point, Ping?

Is a buffer zone inherently good or bad? Or is it just the place where both sides end up facing each other with troopson the ground?

The Korean DMZ is a buffer zone. So what does that mean exactly? Is there some negative conotation you're trying to ascribe?

Ping · « **Reply #65 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:54:46 PM »

It seems to me that you were arguing that it wasn't

"Not incidentally, Berlin's status as an outpost deep inside Soviet-occupied territory"
Sounds like a forward base to me

Toad · « **Reply #66 on:** March 04, 2003, 05:33:49 PM »

I believe you were the one making the implication that Germany itself had no real meaning for the US, using the term "buffer zone" as a demeaning descriptive.

Quote

Ping

I am really tired of hearing how America saved Germany from the Communist horde.

Germany was a Buffer Zone. End of story. In any attack from the USSR, Germany would have been trampled but giving the USA time to Regroup and retaliate.

It wasn't about saving Germany, It was about having a forward base of operations.

I still think that post is simply bovine originated fertilizer. It WAS about "saving" Germany from Soviet domination. We were so serious about it we were willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of American boys and risk all out nuclear war to do so.

End of story.

Quote

Ping

Sounds like a forward base to me

Really, how many Divisions or Wings were based in Berlin?

Eaglecz · « **Reply #67 on:** March 04, 2003, 05:42:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Steve
A Brief History of Germany

1871 - Bismarck founds modern Germany.
1890 - Bismarck sacked, warmonger Wilhelm II takes direct control.
1914 - Germany starts World War I
1914-1918 - Germany kills millions upon millions of people.
1917 - Germany forces peace loving Americans to enter war.
1918 - Germany loses World War I.
1920's - Germans try democracy.
1933 - Germans reject democracy, allow Hitler to take power.
1939 - Germany starts World War II.
1939-1945 - Germany kills millions upon millions of people.
1941 - Germany forces peace loving Americans to enter war.
1945 - Germany loses World War II.
1946 - Germans whine about lack of food, America gives billions in food aid
to feed them.
1947 - Germans whine about crappy economy, America gives billions in
Marshall Plan aid to rebuild German economy.
1948-1949 - America puts bellybutton on line and risks WW3 to save a few Berliners
from Soviet hordes.
1949 - Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) established.
1950's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1950's - German 'economic miracle' occurs while America keeps watch on
Soviet hordes.
1955 - NATO formed to protect West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1960's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1960's - German students protest war in Vietnam and American civil rights.
1963 - American President John Kennedy makes "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech.
1970's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1970's - Germans form the Marxist terrorist group Red Army Faction (RAF).
1970's - Leftist German guerrillas burn, loot, and plunder much of West
Germany.
1980's - America spends tens of billions to defend West Germany from Soviet
hordes.
1980's - German leftists squeak about Pershing II missiles.
1987 - American President Ronald Reagan makes "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down
this wall" speech.
1989 - Gorbachev tears down Berlin Wall.
1990 - German Reunification.
1990's - America spends tens of billions to defend Germany from Islamic
hordes.
1990's - Germany stands by as ethnic cleansing occurs in Balkans.
1993 - Germany joins European Union.
1995 - Americans send troops to Bosnia as Germans watch from the sidelines.
1997 - Germans finally send troops to Bosnia.
1998 - Hardline, left-of-left socialist come to power under Gerhard
Schroeder.
1999 - Americans lead air war to save Kosovo as Germans watch from the
sidelines.
2001 - Schroeder offers solidarity to America after 9/11 attacks.
2002 - Schroeder bashes America to distract voters during election
campaign.
2003 - Germany sees rise in anti-Americanism after several decades of poor
treatment from America.

AND YOU THOUGHT THE FRENCH WERE UNGRATEFUL?

you are a bit off ... you missed few important points about you super cool holy america

1939 - America & UK & France gave Czech republic to Hitler w/o any problem or feeling of moral ... There was proper official aliance between Czech and those countries.. and because western tards are balls less egomanic watching their hamburgers, they did it even w/o official cancelation of allience with Czech repubilc.....

so in year of 1939 american proved whats their concern and untill Hitler was far enough from them the did fuking nothing... but since first german airplanes did apear on "US coast radar", they final got the point.

so sorry my sceptic about your pathetic peace defender with Mr. Butcher on lead..

i was so please that turkey goverment respected wish of their people, while mr. Butcher saing that he will ignore willing of his owen people ..

they day someone will shoot his brain of his head, i will not cry .. not realy

anyway he is nice actor

orel

Ping · « **Reply #68 on:** March 04, 2003, 05:46:06 PM »

Scuse me....It was the CIA that referred to it as "an outpost deep inside Soviet-occupied territory"
and
" As the lines were drawn in the postwar confrontation that ushered in the Cold War, these symbolic, political, and strategic considerations emerged as factors of permanent importance to US policy toward Berlin, Germany, and Europe."

This is about Cold War attitudes and Superpower confrontations.
Germany was a buffer between these attitudes and was not due to an altruistic attitude of the US government.
Were Americans willing and ready to die for there convictions? Yes. But Realisticly this was about the
"United States' determination to maintain a presence on the Continent of Europe."

funkedup · « **Reply #69 on:** March 04, 2003, 05:58:24 PM »

Quote

This is about Cold War attitudes and Superpower confrontations.

Are you trying to say the US was involved in Europe only for the sake of Cold War Attitudes and Superpower Confrontations? I think you've got it bass ackwards, putting the cart before the horse. The Cold War and the Superpower Confrontations were a result of the US sticking out its neck to save Western Europe from Stalin's butchery. The US freed them from Hitler, and could have gone home. But wise people in the US government realized that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, and poured trillions of dollars and millions of men into Europe for four decades in order to save Western Europe from yet another barbaric tyrant.

Quote

But Realisticly this was about the
"United States' determination to maintain a presence on the Continent of Europe."

And back to my unanswered question: Why would the US want that? It was just a big money pit. What possible motivation could the US have for defending Europe? Like I said, the trillions of dollars an millions of thousands of men could have been put to great use at home. So why did the US cripple its economy this way?

Could it be...

Altruism?

Naaaaa

Ping · « **Reply #70 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:09:15 PM »

Glad you asked Funked

http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/17240/2-19.pdf

1. Germany: Blockade and Negotiations
The situation created by the lifting of the Berlin blockade and by the agreement to reopen Four-Power negotiations on Germany is here examined in a broader context than that provided by the detailed issues that have accumulated around the German problem in the course of three and a half years. At least three such broader contexts can be identified. First, the global power relations and the respective power potentials of the US (and the West) and the USSR (and the East). Second , the over-all situation in Europe and its capacity to effect changes in the relative position and potentials of the West and the East. Third, the long-term importance, to both West and East, of controlling—or neutralizing—the potential of Central Europe (Germany and Austria).

Steve · « **Reply #71 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:12:21 PM »

Lol Eaglecz.

Let me get this straight, you are bringing up ONE point about something America did... that has nothing to do with all the money and support we gave to Germany. NOTHING.
Please, please tell me what this has got to do with Germany being in our debt, yet not appreciating it?

If what you say is true... which I doubt: The Germans owe us even more... hell we did all the things I mentioned and gave them the Czech republic to boot.

Again... what has your post got to do with the fact that Germany needs to start paying back some of the kindness we showed them?

Ping · « **Reply #72 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:12:23 PM »

Please note:
None of these statements are mine......they are those of your own Government.

Eaglecz · « **Reply #73 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:14:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Steve
A Brief History of Germany
1920's - Germans try democracy.
1933 - Germans reject democracy, allow Hitler to take power.
1939 - Germany starts World War II.
1939-1945 - Germany kills millions upon millions of people.
1941 - Germany forces peace loving Americans to enter war.

1947 - Germans whine about crappy economy, America gives billions in
Marshall Plan aid to rebuild German economy.
1948-1949 - America puts bellybutton on line and risks WW3 to save a few Berliners
from Soviet hordes.
1949 - Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) established.
1950's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1955 - NATO formed to protect West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1960's - German students protest war in Vietnam and American civil rights.
1970's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.
1980's - America spends tens of billions to defend West Germany from Soviet
hordes.
1980's - German leftists squeak about Pershing II missiles.
1990's - America spends tens of billions to defend Germany from Islamic
hordes.
1990's - Germany stands by as ethnic cleansing occurs in Balkans.
1995 - Americans send troops to Bosnia as Germans watch from the sidelines.
1999 - Americans lead air war to save Kosovo as Germans watch from the
sidelines.
2003 - Germany sees rise in anti-Americanism after several decades of poor
treatment from America.

can you explain you points above ? more details about that will be apriciated

anyway 1996 - US airplanes droped bomb on chinese embassy in Yugoslavia, they never said "sorry"

2003 - US battle airplanes breaching airspace above austria, w/o any shame

anyway whats wrong on Islamic horde ? they are not even worster that christians ... ?
are you sure, you wanna separate people by their religion ??

long live to stone age

Ping · « **Reply #74 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:15:31 PM »

The Reason for the USA in Europe to begin with was for the Destruction of the NAZI forces rampaging through Europe. That is not what we were discussing. It was the Cold War aftermath that was being discussed and the reason for US continued presense.

Need A spell check