10Bears Does Iraq have Chem/Bio Weapons?

[davidpt40]

It would be a heck of alot more economical to have thousands of inspectors in Iraq running around looking for weapons 24/7 than to have a massive air/ground war AND a regime change.  If the U.S. doesn't maintain its technological edge (militarily but more important economically), we will really see stocks drop and the national debt rise.  

Special Forces are doing a good job rounding up Bin Ladens honchos, and for that I am proud of them.  I feel safe and I feel healthy, but if Bush cant lower the 'misery factor' and create a growing economy, kick his butt out.  Is anyone here really afraid of Iraq? Not me.

[SirLoin]

I'll bet anyone that Iraq(and other Arab nations) not only have nasty gas/dirty bombs,but a nuke or two...And Isreal will be the first to find this out should Iraq not comply with March 17 deadline.

Any takers?

[Gyro/T69]

^^^^

    Not sure what your betting here. Do you mean, Iraq will hit Isreal with a non-conventual(sp) weapon? No doubt in mine mind. The bet should be, if it happens, will Baghdad disappear in a blinding white light.

[Toad]

If so, the place where Baghdad used to be will prove beyond doubt the Israelis had nukes too.

But I'd take your side of the bet.

London Sunday Times
June 18, 2000

Israeli defence sources claim the country has secretly carried out its first test launches from submarines of cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The launches last month from German-built vessels in the Indian Ocean were designed to simulate swift retaliation against a pre-emptive nuclear attack from Iran.

They'll probably even make it look like we did it.

[davidpt40]

Israel has admitted to having nukes, but only small tactical sized warheads.

[Nash]

"Is that an answer?" - Toad

Yeah Toad - more than I was looking for actually. Thanks for that reply.

It's a shame that the only thing people like you and I have to go on is supposition. Especially when weighing the invasion of a sovereign country. It sure makes me uncomfortable at least, and to this day I still don't know if I'm for or against.

I understand your point about "the government can't tell us everything". However, if anyone up there has evidence that the development of nukes is merely months away and may be as pressing as you suggest, then surely this information would be shared amongst the other governments of the UN... Which would make France et al heinously derelict in my view... and it's hard for me to imagine their comfort in placing self interests above another nation's right to defend against such a threat.

In any case, if this war turns out to be completely justified, with all of this evidence emerging after its conclusion... then I gotta say we've been witness to the most bumbling, pathetic and damaging sales job for war, both to the public and to the world's leaders that I hope we'll never see again. If it's really that bad, we shouldn't be as divided.

[Toad]

Nash, your right it sux. This shouldn't need to be done at all.

You'd think people the world over would have figured this war thing out by now. There's NOT going to be any winners, only losers in varying degrees.

They absolutely did a terrible "sales job"; I agree totally. But I'm not suprised; I don't know if you were of an age to be paying close attention in '91, but THAT was a tough sell too... with Iraq already parking tanks in Kuwait. James Baker was flying around to national capitals like a deranged homing pigeon to get everyone on board. Once it got going, though, everybody jumped on the bandwagon.

I think it will turn out to be "justified" at least with respect to the UN SC resolutions and sanctions put on Iraq after GW1 and subsequent. They've got stuff they're not supposed to have and they've been hiding stuff from Blix. Count on it.

However...... lots of people have bad stuff. Lots of really bad people have bad stuff. The UN SC says nothing. And we're not invading them, are we? I hate that argument basically because it's true. But is the world ready to "take out the garbage" everywhere? Cod knows it'd make a h*ll of a lot of oppressed populations rejoice and uncountable mother's inconsolable.

What is it in humans that lets the Mugabes, the Husseins and the Kim Jong Ils rise to dictatorial positions?

I digress....

Worst case is that they go ahead and DO NOT find that stuff. Were that true, I'd be actively calling for the resignation of the whole load of them.

I really don't think that's the case, but I've been wrong before.

[Gman]

Are you 100% sure this TAS member is legit?

I would bet my last cent on it Grun.  When I was in TAS I was forwarded some pics from the member in question (Joe), and everything looked straight up to me.  The pics were of his team doing a rubber raft insertion into a lake from a Helo.  

Also, I had just been in Ft. Lewis on a course with some local Canadian PD sharpshooters, and ended up shooting with some of the US Army Rifle team members in a service rifle shoot (being run, by all things, a SQUID from the Navy).  Ft. Lewis is where said member was based at the time.

This was before I was in the 13th TAS, and when I mentioned it to the member in question, he knew exactly what I was talking about and sent me his info to get in contact with him next time we were down so we could meet.  Anyhow, it didn't strike me as the actions one would take if they were a make believe soldier.  Besides, the fact that you don't even know who Weps is and what he does speaks volumes for the fact that he is who he is.  It fits with the pattern that those who claim to be SF/Seals/Etc never are, and those who are you never hear from .


I still have the emails/pics.  If you want them as proof to assure yourself Grunherz, by all means contact me by email.  I certainly understand anybody's hesitation with that Voss idjits display, and Skater the "Navy Seal (more like easter seal) from simhq.com, but Joe/Weps/Wpnx is 100% legit.

[Nash]

Another good reply.

"Worst case is that they go ahead and DO NOT find that stuff. Were that true, I'd be actively calling for the resignation of the whole load of them."

That's the whole crux of it.

If they do find this stuff, then hallelujah, thank christ that crap has been dealt with, kudos to Bush and his Allies, and alot of the world's politicians are going to look mighty bad. Derelict. (I'm not prepared to blame the stances of yer common citizen though, because I still think we haven't been given a decently full and honest accounting of things).

On the other hand, if they don't find this stuff, then this entire thing has been a sham. Say what you want about Hussein's "evilness" or his track record - there are many out there with worse - and I don't think it's enough cause for invasion. And it would mean we've all been thoroughly lied to.

"Worst case is that they go ahead and DO NOT find that stuff. Were that true, I'd be actively calling for the resignation of the whole load of them."

I tell ya what... Your bet to 10bears.... I'll take a peice of this action.

I don't have any say in your government's affairs... but maybe I can get me some. If they find WMD in Iraq to a degree that you and I can reasonably consider it a threat to other nations and is clearly a violation of their '91 resolutions and 1441, and/or evidence of a nuke program that goes somewhat beyond mere blueprints (some kind of equipment/infrastructure will suffice), then I'll pay a month's worth of AH to your squaddie.

If they don't find this stuff, then you write your congressman or applicable representative asking for Bush to take a long hike.

Just to make sure we're clear on what constitutes evidence so we don't end up hair splitting, I need to see more than what we've seen so far (a couple cans of mustard gas, empty tubes or missiles that fly a few miles farther than allowed). Not a *whole* lot more, just, ya know... something where reasonable people can look at it and feel comfortable and justified with the fact that hundreds of thousands of troops were sent in to take this stuff out.

Either way it pans out, I think we both win from this bet. Deal?

[blitz]

Originally posted by Nash
Another good reply.

"Worst case is that they go ahead and DO NOT find that stuff. Were that true, I'd be actively calling for the resignation of the whole load of them."

That's the whole crux of it.

If they do find this stuff, then hallelujah, thank christ that crap has been dealt with, kudos to Bush and his Allies, and alot of the world's politicians are going to look mighty bad. Derelict. (I'm not prepared to blame the stances of yer common citizen though, because I still think we haven't been given a decently full and honest accounting of things).

On the other hand, if they don't find this stuff, then this entire thing has been a sham. Say what you want about Hussein's "evilness" or his track record - there are many out there with worse - and I don't think it's enough cause for invasion. And it would mean we've all been thoroughly lied to.

"Worst case is that they go ahead and DO NOT find that stuff. Were that true, I'd be actively calling for the resignation of the whole load of them."

I tell ya what... Your bet to 10bears.... I'll take a peice of this action.

I don't have any say in your government's affairs... but maybe I can get me some. If they find WMD in Iraq to a degree that you and I can reasonably consider it a threat to other nations and is clearly a violation of their '91 resolutions and 1441, and/or evidence of a nuke program that goes somewhat beyond mere blueprints (some kind of equipment/infrastructure will suffice), then I'll pay a month's worth of AH to your squaddie.

If they don't find this stuff, then you write your congressman or applicable representative asking for Bush to take a long hike.

Just to make sure we're clear on what constitutes evidence so we don't end up hair splitting, I need to see more than what we've seen so far (a couple cans of mustard gas, empty tubes or missiles that fly a few miles farther than allowed). Not a *whole* lot more, just, ya know... something where reasonable people can look at it and feel comfortable and justified with the fact that hundreds of thousands of troops were sent in to take this stuff out.

Either way it pans out, I think we both win from this bet. Deal?

Imho, it's not the only case whether they find this stuff or not.

If there isn't a second resolution from UN to allow a war it's not up to the USA to decide : We do it nevertheless.


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous

[Nash]

That may be, and even Toad agrees with ya. The bet is just specific to a certain... uh... thing.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
....I don't have any say in your government's affairs... but maybe I can get me some. If they find WMD in Iraq to a degree that you and I can reasonably consider it a threat to other nations and is clearly a violation of their '91 resolutions and 1441, and/or evidence of a nuke program that goes somewhat beyond mere blueprints (some kind of equipment/infrastructure will suffice), then I'll pay a month's worth of AH to your squaddie.

If they don't find this stuff, then you write your congressman or applicable representative asking for Bush to take a long hike.

....Either way it pans out, I think we both win from this bet. Deal?

First of all, I'd like to see if 10Bears is going to put up or not. I really think he doesn't believe the stuff about "Iraq has no significant Chem/Bio" but just can't bring himself to publicly say it.

Second, after he gets off the pot on this,  I'll take your money but know this:

I'll be writing EVERY SINGLE Senator and Representative in the US demanding Bush's resignation if they don't find this stuff within a reasonable period. And I mean bunches of it and I mean validated by various newsmen and UN inspectors.

If he's sending young American's out to fight and die on on trumped up charges, I want him hung, not just in prison. And you can save this on your HD so you can confirm it matches what I'm saying if and when the time comes.

So really, you can save your $$$$, because I'll be doing it anyway. But if it makes ya feel better, I'll take yer money after 10Bears decides if he's in or out.

[Toad]

C'mon 10 Bears, Nash is waiting!

You still convince that Iraq has no significant chem/bio stuff in deliberate violation of the UN SC sanctions?

Or are you gonna run up the white flag and admit that it is extremely probable that they do have that stuff, despite Blix's assurances?

[10Bears]

Toad,

Would Bush lie about something this grave?

Lets go down the short list of lies.

Bush claims to be just a Texas homeboy. False. He was born in Connecticut, went to private schools then went on to Yale as a legacy student.  He claims to have finished his National Guard duties. False. There is no record of his honorable discharge. Bush claimed his stadium in Arlington Texas would bring in revenue to the locals there. False. He raised property taxes to pay for the stadium then left the good people of Arlington holding the bag. Bush claimed during the presidential campaign that his massive tax cut would help the economy. False. We now sport a 400 billion dollar deficit. Keep in mind there was 300 billion surplus of actual money sitting on his desk on his first day in office. On his first day in office, he or his administration claimed his predecessor trashed the Whitehouse and Air Force One. False. The GAO in their report cited no such damage. There are a number of other examples of George Bush misrepresenting the truth.

If you had taken the time to read the link I gave you, The Project for a New American Century, you would’ve seen there is an agenda for the middle east. much different than the one presented to the world or the American people.  

The pretext for Bush invading Iraq is because he has WMD against 1441 or is violating the terms of the cease fire in 1991. Hans Blix in his report yesterday said Iraq was cooperating with the terms of 1441. It is the inspectors opinion that most of these weapons were destroyed at the end of the Gulf war, some more in 1995 as per the defector. Still more during Desert Fox. If he has anything left.. it’s a couple of buckets of bug spray.

Now would it be a major leap for Bush to misrepresent the truth here?.. As you said you would be the first to call for his impeachment blow the whistles ring the bells.. but wait. With war there are many stories that would jump to the front burner. Kurd uprisings, Turkish troops crossing the northern border, Iranians to the west and so forth, the WMD stories would fade into a memory hole. If any reporter asks about it at all the spin will be he moved his weapons to Syria or they are buried deep. The new story would be Bush brought Democracy to Iraq. Bush is a great man etc.

I will accept your second wager. You win $45 IF
1)The weapons are found within two weeks of Iraqi surrender.
2)Hans Blix and his team are allowed to inspect those weapons.
3)Has to be real weapons of mass destruction. Can’t keep raising the bar.          
4)You sleep with that cute lil hippy gal above.

[Nash]

There we go... I guess a bet is born.

To me it's like debating the existence of aliens, or God for that matter. Nobody can be sure they exist, and nobody can be sure they don't. Same goes for WMD in Iraq. Once you wipe aside all the rhetoric, allegations and best guesses, the only thing we can finally be sure about is that none of us on this BBS knows diddly all about it, really.

Think that's wrong? Then point me to indisputable evidence. You can't. And there'd hardly be need for a bet if it were so.

So WMD may be there, and it may not. Iraqis may dance in the streets upon the ousting of the Iraqi government, or they may be quite hostile towards occupation. Iraq may turn into this marvellous beacon of democracy in the dessert, or the whole thing may just go spiralling down the toejamter.

Who knows?

So here we have a bet based on evidence that may or may not turn up after the war is prosecuted. The very evidence on which this war is supossedly predicated. It's kind of nuts. I gotta wonder about people's eagerness to see a war not based on something they know, but based on something that may or may not turn up only after the war is fought. Trust in your leaders is fine for a lot of things, but in the case of sending troops in to overthrow the governments of sovereign nations... you'd hope they'd throw us some kind of bone. Something more than we've been given - by a long shot.

Interesting times ahead...