Do we care about world opinion?

[BlauK]

All you people who talk about anti-americanism... that is not really the case. "The world" has nothing against the american nation, "it" only does not like your foul leader

Hmmm... that has a familiar sound in it.. doesn't it?  

OK, what is the next country with weapons of mass destructions... or was it "...with oil resources" ?

[Batz]

you didnt read 1441 ram, no where does it mention anything about the legality of war, one way or another.

What it provisdes for is that if Iraq is held in material breech there will be serious consequences.

What constitutes a material breech is to be determined by the individual members of the security council not the Inspectors.

The US feel Saddams in material breech and is acting to protect its interest.

The legal justification for this war can be found in the agreements Saddam signed at end the previous war.

This war is continuation of the last one, to bring Saddam into compliance.

But theres another justification that Bush mentioned that relates to self defense.

The inspectors went to Iraq to verify that Saddam is in compliance with previous resolutions, not to play detective, not to "catch Saddam in a lie" and to not find wmd but to ensure Saddam has destroyed those wmd which he previously acknowledged as having.

You havent read the 1441 if you think otherwise.

The UN has no legal authority over the actions of the US all they can do is handring and voice disagreement in our approach.

[Ripsnort]

RRAM, naturally the inspectors who work for the UN need more time, their coffers are getting alittle low

"Oil Loss Hits UN coffers" -- The United Nations is losing its only cash cow with the shutdown of Iraq's oil fields -- with profits of more than $300 million year. The UN has been making a tidy gain acting as a partner for Iraq for the past 11 years to sell its embargoed oil in exchange for food and medical supplies. "It was the only profitable thing at the UN", said one oil analyst. "It paid for a lot of programs and overhead there."

The UN controlled the sale of as much as $200 billion in Iraqi oil since the 1996 economic embargo started against Iraq . . . . "Everyone on the Security Council liked the arrangement because of the relief money it provided," said oil analyst Peter Beutel of Cameron, Hanover. He said the UN also arranged for the purchase of food and pharmaceuticals with the oil money.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by RRAM
If they had found something, of if they had met any kind of resistance or lack of cooperation to their inspection then I'd thikn you're right.

but that hasn't been done, nor anything similar to that...there's nothing that leads me to think that the UN inspectors were wrong in their reports to the UN SC. And all you have is speculation to toy with.

And supporting a war only having speculation to back up your opinion, is something questionable, at least from my point of view.
 

 So you really believe that the US and UK governments have embarked upon a multi-billion dollar campaign, using intelligence gathered by the CIA, which you, from your armchair, dismiss as "speculation"?  Give the guys some credit, RRAM. The CIA has spy satellites. They have telephone surveillance monitoring equipment. They have agents on the ground...  

...but you won't be satisfied until pictures of VX gas cannisters appear on your TV. When that happens, you will want the evidence to be substantiated, as many will argue that the evidence was "planted" by agents of GWB's "terrorist regime". What else will you want - interviews with our Iraqi moles?  What do you think would happen to their families when Saddam found out what was happening, and who those moles were?  And what do you think would be our chances of gathering intelligence by covert means after that?

[Dowding]

Beetle, you'd changed tack from your original position. You never mentioned method of travel in your first post - you simply asserted that most people on that march had never 'left these shores'.

I've never met anyone who hasn't been abroad. Anyone. Even my 83 year old grandmother has been to Spain dozens of times. She went last year. At school, we went on trips to France etc. My current friends probably use their passport a dozen times a year, both for pleasure and business. I don't consider them out of the ordinary - far from it. Your original assertion was just plain wrong.

Now, the inspections. Why couldn't the CIA have given the UN inspectors a list of locations of GPS coordinates and said 'Check this out'? Blix wanted more intelligence sharing, but those who apparently held that information were very reluctant to even give a list of infringements with associated coords.

[Vermillion]

I'm not sure if I could express it better myself.....




Sorry, I read that and laughed my bellybutton off.

[Scootter]

Ram,

     The inspectors were to be SHOWN that the disarmament was DONE, as Iraq has and continues to state it was. This was done in South Africa due to the country’s willingness and eagerness to comply.
      What we have now is the worlds biggest game of hide and seek and it has made a joke of the UN and its rules.

      I don’t think any nation will ever take a requirement of the UN seriously again (I wont). History will bear out the depth of the non-compliance of Iraq and when that happens I don’t suspect you or the other doom and gloom Peace nicks will have much to say (we don’t expect an apology).

       The US asks no one and no country for permission to defend its people. If France has a problem with us going after its #1 trade partner and source of much income, tough. I remember a time when Germany once had a problem with us helping  the French deal with a tyrant.

If the world wants to suck up to Saddam fine, you just might want to wait a bit first.

If you think what we do is illegal fine then kick our troops out of Europe and stop buying our stuff and put us in jail.

The days of the US giving and bleeding for others may be starting to come to an end... think about that and what it would mean (stop and really think about that).

Europe wants and wants, we are starting to see a trend here and are getting  a bit tired of it, I know I am.

[beet1e]

Dowding -

Now, the inspections. Why couldn't the CIA have given the UN inspectors a list of locations of GPS coordinates and said 'Check this out'? Blix wanted more intelligence sharing, but those who apparently held that information were very reluctant to even give a list of infringements with associated coords.
 

I said what I said about British travel. Feel free to dispute the Campaign Against Aviation as an authoritative source of aviation related fact.

Maybe the CIA does not want to disclose the information, so that we can HAVE the war, get rid of Saddam, and then reveal the hidden WMD. If they disclosed the whereabouts of the WMD, they would have to be destroyed, and there would be less of a case for a war. The troops would withdraw, and Saddam would be back in business as usual.

[SLO]

you write well my friend RRAM.....


but ya gotta understand....this is an American in majority board....ya gonna get it ...from all sides.


Serious Consequences.......

does it mean WAR....
does it mean a few missiles at suspected targets.....
does it mean taking out the LEADER.....
a few bombs dropped on suspected target.....
more embargoes.....
more scare tactics to make em comply......

I think your "Serious Consequences" means all out WAR..... is single minded.....

I'd think It meant a more AGGRESSIVE approach to inspections.....meaning, inspectors backed up with military power....

but but but but but.....ah well.....War is begun.

[Dowding]

I said what I said about British travel. Feel free to dispute the Campaign Against Aviation as an authoritative source of aviation related fact.

Travel in the 80s was expensive. Now it's cheap. Show me information from the 21st century and I might concede your point.

Maybe the CIA does not want to disclose the information, so that we can HAVE the war, get rid of Saddam, and then reveal the hidden WMD. If they disclosed the whereabouts of the WMD, they would have to be destroyed, and there would be less of a case for a war. The troops would withdraw, and Saddam would be back in business as usual.

So the inspection regime might have worked if information you trust the CIA to have (implicitly and without reservation, it would seem) was given to Blix, but it wasn't because it would have interferred with an agenda that centres around regime change?

Wow. Right about now I should be saying 'get your tin foil helmet out' or other such nonsense. But of course, that only applies to theories that contradict the party line, rather than support them.

[StSanta]

To answer the original question before the thread got hijacked:

You Americans can ignore world opinion as you please. You may sit in your bubble on earth and ignore other cultures or opinions. Uou can also assume you are morally superior to all other people and that all actions you take abroad are for the good of mankind.

It is up to you.

Everything comes with a price. The price of ignorance and arrogance is a building of contempt and hatred. Hatred leads to desire to hurt - and we've seen what that can do on 9/11.

What I am saying is that you're powerful enough military, economically and culturally to do whatever the hell you please. However, being hated by the rest of the world will have consequences, and you know it and accept it.

If you ignore world opinion and do things that are very popular in the US but extremely unpopular everywhere else, the price you'll pay is a great increase in terrorist attacks, in the US and against US interests and people in other parts of the world. A situation like in Israel may come to be.

And despite the massive power the US possesses, it will be unable to stop some of these terrorist attacks.  The more countries against the US, the more likely it is that terrorists will get hold of more potent weapons. The more unpopular the US is abroad, the less cooperation it'll get - sure on the surface countries will cooperate for economic rasons and the US will be able to buy allies, but there will be large areas where there is some cooperation, enough to not stop lucrative trade, but not enough to stop terrorists.

For companies there is a qualititative thing called goodwill. It's actually incorporated into the net worth of a company. Massive loss of this will of course take place if the US did what I mentioned above.

In summary, the price you will pay for ignoring world opinion is a) loss of face to the rest of the world, which you of course can ignore, unless people spit at you when you're on vacation b) less cooperation and goodwill around the world, with the exception of bought off states, c) increased terrorist attacks in the US and against US interests d) govt interference in private life of peole living in the US, in order to thwarth the increased number of attempted terrorist attacks.

But you can do it, as you're pissed off, bellybutton kicking, brave, close to the ground uncomplicated people who prefer action to thoughts and words. You do what you have to, and the rest of the world will do the same.

Just do not forget that the US is as dependent on other nations as other nations are on the US. We're not living in isolated bubbles within a vacuum.

Me, I hope we get a more thoughtful administration in the US who thinks more and doesn't create  more tension than there already is by you're either with us or against us and axis of evil speeches, coombined with disregard of Rule of Law.

[Batz]

So we need to watch out for French and German terrorists,

Thanks for the warning.

But you should know theres 35 nations aiding the US in their actions in Iraq.

The majority of the worlds economies bare some relation to the US economy. If our economy hurts, so does yours.

The US government has no obligation to world opinion. They are obligated to the American people who elected and pay them.

While the US certainly has a concern about its image in the world it will not allow world opinion to over rides its own interests.

We are not "citizens of the world" we are a sovereign independent nation and the leaders of this Nation are responsible to its citizens not the some European socialists or 3rd world dictators.

America has paid the price in blood, personal sacrifice and money to be in this position.

We will not wait until something worse then 9/11 happens.

You Europeans can either except that or hold another "candlight vigil" but that that wont change a thing.

We were attacked by terrorist before the Iraq invasion, we will be attacked by terrorists regardless. What we can do is take away the possibility of state support. Its state supported terrorism that is the greatest threat to America. While 9/11 was tragic there are things out there far worse.

The price of ignorance and arrogance......

Thats typical european response and quite hypocritical of you since in the paragraph before that you say

Uou can also assume you are morally superior to all other people.....

It seems to me thats the very thing you are doing.....

America wont end over this despite your prophecy. We hear alot on this board about how America treats its friends that disagree with us. Mostly from Europeans but they fail to take into account how they treat the US.

Our government heard the "worlds complaints" and made a descision based on its own interests. If the world has trouble with that so what.

[Hangtime]

Me, I hope we get a more thoughtful administration in the US who thinks more and doesn't create more tension than there already is by you're either with us or against us and axis of evil speeches, coombined with disregard of Rule of Law.

it' a two-way street santa.

personally, i doubt bush will get re-elected.

i do hope we get the attention of the terror states and slaughtering dictators... i hope they get the message.

[StSanta]

So we need to watch out for French and German terrorists,

LOL funny comment, but not what I meant. You can expect more terrorists from everywhere, with less impetus for foreign government to do something about them.

Thanks for the warning.

I aim to please. And succeed often enough, according to the ladies.

But you should know theres 35 nations aiding the US in their actions in Iraq.

Including my own govt, and I support their position. We're not just talking Iraq here; we're talking world opinion in general. And as I said, if US does things popular at home but widely unpopular abroad...that is the premise.

The majority of the worlds economies bare some relation to the US economy. If our economy hurts, so does yours.

Aye, I think I make it clear that I understand that in later comments. Also works the other way; the world hurts, and the US will hurt

The US government has no obligation to world opinion. They are obligated to the American people who elected and pay them.

Yep, and they need to make the US as prosperous and secure as possible. And having the world as an enemy might not be what the people who elected and pay them want.

We are not "citizens of the world" we are a sovereign independent nation and the leaders of this Nation are responsible to its citizens not the some European socialists or 3rd world dictators.

Of course you are an independent nation. But you are also people in a world. Borders are arbitrary lines on a map, and you cannot live in a vacuum. You are affected and influenced by the rest of the world. See how well you'd do without oil imports, for instance.



You Europeans can either except that or hold another "candlight vigil" but that that wont change a thing.

My govt has, at great political cost, stood by the US EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. Including sending submarine, fighter planes, special forces to aid the US, in Afghanistan and Iraq. And Denmark is a European country. Please, if you must make blanket statements, let them be a little more accurate. I can understand your resentment towards certain European countries such as France and Germany, but do not let their behavior blind you to the behaiour of other European countries who've proven by words and actions to support you.

Thats typical european response and quite hypocritical of you since in the paragraph before that you say

Am commenting on what the price og ignorance and arrogance is. England knows it. France does. Denmark does. We've all first hand experienced it. The comment wasn't meant to be an insult, rather a warning. Previous great powers like France and England are a shadow of their former selves - in great part because of ignorance and arrogance.


It seems to me thats the very thing you are doing.....

No, I am just so Golly-geened tired of hearing how the US is the only protector of freedom and  democracy and always altruistic. This is pure BS and I react violently to it. Other nations pull their weight too, yet when one read these boards one get the distinct feeling that Americans seem to thin they invented freedom and are the only ones doing something to keep it. A comment made because it annoys me to a great degree that there isn't credit given elsewhere.

America wont end over this despite your prophecy. We hear alot on this board about how America treats its friends that disagree with us. Mostly from Europeans but they fail to take into account how they treat the US.

Ah, you mean the Danish soldiers that died in Afghanistan helping the US? Or the fighters and AWACS we sent? Or the support in Iraq? The support in the EU through Denmark? We've been there, all the way.

Our government heard the "worlds complaints" and made a descision based on its own interests. If the world has trouble with that so what.

We need to see broader than the current crisis.I am commenting on, as I said earlier, if US did things popular at home, unpopular abroad a LOT, not thinking at all about public opinion, then what would happen.

And I didn't prophesice (sp?) about the destruction of the US. Was saying what I thought would happen - increase in terrorist attacks, more intrusion in your private lives, most costly, spitted upon abroad etc.

And as I said, you can do it. It'd be arrogant and ignorant, a big bully tactic. 'Because I CAN' is pretty arrogant and ignorant in my book.

And yer leaders are too intelligent to think they can piss off the entire world without it having negative consequences. The question is; are you ready to accept teh consequences or not? Not talking just Iraq but if there is a coninuation of the scenario I have put forth three times.

With regards.

[Scootter]

in answer to your question

NOPE!  you know what they say about opinions


Does the world care about ours     dont look like it