Author Topic: The most common mistakes I see made...  (Read 1502 times)

Offline wetrat

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« on: March 29, 2003, 10:01:52 PM »
There are a whole lot of mistakes I see people make in the various arenas, and there are several that many of the more "experienced" pilots count on people to make and exploit them. I myself make some of these "mistakes" all the time, simply because I count on most people in the arenas to not know how to take advantage; mind you, whenever I come across a decent pilot I'm screwed.

Here they are, in no particular order:

1) Attempting to out-turn a slower con. This is one of the most common mistakes among the newer TnBers (spits, nikis, etc). It doesn't really matter what the other guy is in, if you're closing on him fast, he's going to turn tighter than you, and if you go after him, you're screwed. If he turns, go into a zoom climb or something. This is in fact the most common mistake I come across.

2) Making a few turns, seeing that the other guy knows what he's doing, and giving up. Quite often I'll be attacked by someone in a spit and go into a rolling scissor, or make a few turns and try to rope them, and all of a sudden they'll give up and try to get away. Now that CAN work, but it depends entirely on what you're in and what the other guy's in. If the other guy can accelerate better than you, giving up and heading for home is one of the worst things you can possibly do.

3) Waiting too long to break when being bounced. Quite often I'll dive down on a con, get in fairly close (around d800-1k), and then the guy will break left, right, or simply attempt to do a loop. This isn't a great idea; if the guy bouncing you is anything approaching a good shot, you're going to be smacked pretty hard. When a guy is in that close, he'll have enough time to adjust and get his nose on you. Granted it will most likely be a shot with 70-90 degrees of deflection, but I find deflection shots easier than shooting from dead 6. If you want to wait until the last second to break, for gods sake, do a split S (looping towards the ground).

4) Holding hard turns for too long. This actually happened the last sortie I flew. I was fighting a Spit IX in my 109G2 for 30 seconds or so when he went into a hard, flat sustained turn. Myself being cocky and a complete sucker for that kind of thing, I followed him. I couldn't keep up, and if the guy in the Spit (forgotten his name) looped towards me or something I'd have been screwed, but he just kept turning, and I stayed with it. The Spit was turning a hell of alot faster than me, but eventually, I got my nose on him and hit the 90 degree deflection shot. This happens alot; people assume that the plane with the larger turn radius will just squirt out in front of them without putting themselves in danger, but that just isn't so. Again, any good shot will likely hit that deflection shot and rip through you before he squirts in front.

I'm having a brain fart at the moment and I'm tired of typing, so I'll leave it at that. If I think of anything else I'll add it, but if anyone else can help me out and put some things I've missed, go for it.
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Offline Cooley

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2003, 01:46:35 AM »
#1 mistake i notice,,,is bogey goin into flat turn after the merge.

#2 Target Fixation
« Last Edit: March 30, 2003, 01:52:03 AM by Cooley »
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Offline gofaster

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2003, 09:32:20 AM »
#1 mistake I make - setting autoclimb and then stepping away to take care of household chores.  :p

Offline DamnedRen

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2003, 08:48:57 PM »
Typing death! Landing, in flight...Don't matter where but it happens all the time. :)

Offline ccvi

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Re: The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2003, 12:34:20 PM »
Quote
2) Making a few turns, seeing that the other guy knows what he's doing, and giving up. Quite often I'll be attacked by someone in a spit and go into a rolling scissor, or make a few turns and try to rope them, and all of a sudden they'll give up and try to get away. Now that CAN work, but it depends entirely on what you're in and what the other guy's in. If the other guy can accelerate better than you, giving up and heading for home is one of the worst things you can possibly do.


Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to break further out than >1k?

Offline wetrat

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Re: Re: The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2003, 12:45:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ccvi
Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to break further out than >1k?

huh? Nothing about breaking in that quote... But in my post I did say that people wait far too long to start breaking. If I'm slow enough to still have control over the surfaces, I'll be able to get a shot on the person. I think I said d800-1k? that's a mistake, I meant more around 650-900. But even so... if at 1k the person just makes a really hard banking turn, the attacker will probably have a 90 degree deflection shot by the time they reach d400.

I generally start my breaks around 1.5-2k... But I don't just pull all the way back on the stick.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2003, 12:49:28 PM by wetrat »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2003, 01:54:29 PM »
My #1 mistake is forgetting to bring Ewella flowers on our anniversary.  Hell hath no fury like a Ewe scorned.


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Offline ccvi

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Re: Re: Re: The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2003, 02:42:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
I generally start my breaks around 1.5-2k... But I don't just pull all the way back on the stick.


Ok, agreed. Just a problem of terms :) I don't think that kind of evasive maneuver can be considered breaking.

Offline maddog

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2003, 02:44:32 PM »
Ive learned if the bad guy is coming in fast I start inverting and pulling back toward him (under him)... if he gets a shot at all he will die in the ground.... usually they abort attack.....as soon as he aborts..or is past 3-9 line reverse and try to get him.... if he trys to turn horizontally he will get tooth marks on his elevators....

Offline wetrat

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2003, 07:19:17 PM »
yeah, doing a split S is probably the best "break" if you don't want to tear him to pieces as he blows past
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Offline Blue Mako

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2003, 10:38:37 PM »
If you want to take a shot at someone as they bounce you, do a barrel roll, starting when he is about 1.5k out (depending on his closure rate, this takes practice to judge) and aim to roll wings level as he is coming past you.  Pull into him and let fly as he tries to extend.  However DO NOT follow them up trying to get the shot or you will be rope-a-dope'd...

Offline wetrat

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2003, 05:15:57 PM »
Nahhhhhh mako. If I'm picturing what your suggesting correctly, if the guy bouncing has control of his elevators and isn't going unearthly fast, he can just pull a lot of lead and pop ya at the top of your loop. I've done it many times; not sure if we're talking about the same thing though.

What I usually do (if I see the guy before he hits 1k) is start a gentle turn into them, pulling maybe 2G, and I start pulling tighter betweel 1.5-1k. After I'm nearly flying in the opposite direction, I pull a loop and smack, off goes their tail if I timed it right, or saddle up if they keep turning after me. Basically the same principle when I spot the guy between 1k-750, but it gets a big more dangerous.
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Offline aknimitz

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2003, 06:11:02 PM »
If someone is bouncing me, it is a very rare occassion that I begin my counter-maneuvers until the enemy is *right at* guns range, but not quite - which translates to about 900 yards, sometimes closer if they arent closing very quickly.

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Offline Blue Mako

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2003, 09:20:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
Nahhhhhh mako. If I'm picturing what your suggesting correctly, if the guy bouncing has control of his elevators and isn't going unearthly fast, he can just pull a lot of lead and pop ya at the top of your loop. I've done it many times; not sure if we're talking about the same thing though.


When I come across someone who doesn't know the difference between a barrel roll and a loop, they are usually pulling their ripcord about 10 seconds later...  ;)

Offline HFMudd

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The most common mistakes I see made...
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2003, 09:35:55 AM »
Well it also matters what the plane is that is closing doesn't it?  To take extreme examples, if it is a 262 with the spud guns you can wait until he is quite close and then do a very small break and turn back into him for a quick shot.  If it is a P-47 that can start spraying with tracers off at 1K you want to try something different.  (If it is a Spit V I figure it is Levi and just auger.  It saves everyone time.)