Any late war PTO's in near future?

[ergRTC]

What flight model are you referring to for the ki?  aw or wb?  I think it gets talked up a huge amount, in fact I am sure there will be some severe whining when that gets introduced, cause I am sure it will be about the same as a 109g6.  

g6 is a mighty fine ride, first time I really dogged with it was during this setup, and it was a nice handling plane against a p51b.


I think the problem is that you are approaching this as a lone wolf vs the world.  None of the planes I like to fly perform well under those circumstances.  I dont expect to live unless I have a squad or friend to fly with, so I always think of combinations, not just one on one.

[J_A_B]

Ki-84 is in no way like the 109G-6.   I do not care how AW or WB's modeled it.  

Historically the Ki-84 had a pretty wide range in performance; this is due to the fact that the production Ki-84's used several different versions of the Homare engine, AND were forced to fly with various grades of fuel.   Actual recorded top speeds ranged from as low as 388 MPH, to as much as 427 MPH in the case of a pristine example.

The "average" of the Ki-84, based on multiple sources, would put it at about 400 MPH top speed in the range of 18,000--20,000 feet.  Speed at sea level would be about 355-360 MPH, or basically a match for the F4U-1D low levels.  Initial climb rate would be around 3400-3600 FPM.  Turning ability would be similar to that of the Spit IX and F6F....good but not incredible.  The N1K2 could supposedly out-turn the Ki-84, and out-climb it.  Armament was 2 x 20mm cannons (same model the TONY has), 150 RPG, and 2 heavy MG's w/ 350 rounds each.

The major weaknesses of the Ki-84, relative to the Allied planes, would be poor performance at high altitudes,  and generally inferior energy-retention compared to stuff like the P-51 or F4U....while fast, the Ki-84 couldn't "zoom" particularly well and would bleed speed faster in maneuvers than something like a Spit or P-51.  It would suffer somewhat in vertical type fighting, especially versus the P-38.  It was also less durable than the American fighters.


The Ki-100, on the other hand, didn't have terribly good performance and was inferior to the N1K2 in every way.  The Ki-100 developed a good reputation because it was the only Japanese fighter in 1945 that was actually reliable in service.....quite the opposite of the highly unreliable and untrustworthy Ki-84's and N1K2's.  

J_A_B

[J_A_B]

Hey BRADY, you seem to forget that SPEED is highly dependant on ALTITUDE.

In other words, the F4U-1D does not always have a 40+ MPH advantage over the N1K2.

Consider:

At sea level, the -1D has a definate advantage over the N1K--about 30 MPH.  F4U-1D = 358 MPH, N1K2 = 328 MPH.

However, climb to only 2000 feet and the F4U's advantage is reduced to less than 20 MPH.   F4U = 352 MPH, N1K2 = 334 MPH.

Cimb a little higher, to about 5000 feet, and the F4U's advantage is cut to barely more than 10 MPH, and it stays that way up until about 9000 feet.  

Above that the F4U finally starts to pull away again, finally reaching Brady's quoted 45 MPH at about 14000 feet (and even then, above that it again drops to about 30 MPH until you get over 20K).


All this means that unless the F4U can dive ALL THE WAY to the DECK, it does not have a safe speed advantage over the N1K at low altitudes, especially when you factor in the N1K2's MASSIVE climbrate advantage over the F4U at low altitudes (it's about 1000 FPM).   In short, in the altitude range that most fighting happens in the CT, the N1K2 has roughly equal speed to the F4U-1D.

I have not even mentioned that the N1K out-turns and out-guns the F4U, which of course it does.

Compared to the F6F, the N1K2 out-everythings it below about 15,000 feet.  The F6F can barely match the N1K for speed at seal level, but even that has evaporated by 1500 feet.


Therefore, a late-war setup featuring the F6F and F4U-1D against the N1K2 would not be hopelessly imbalanced for the Japanese side, at least not until numbers are figured in.  Unfortunately the CT staff does not have a means of controlling numbers per country.

I would not add the USAAF aircraft since they are probably a bit much.  I would probably add the FM2, but only from CV's and not from the same CV's that F6F's or Corsairs could fly from (representing jeep carriers).

J_A_B

[Karnak]

ergRTC,

The 109 can't roll, can't turn and suffers horribly from compression.

All of this is worse than the Ki.84's performance in those areas.  There is a reason that the Ki.84 is universally considered the best Japanese fighter of WWII.  If it performed like the Bf109G-6 the N1K2-J would hold that title easily.

[ergRTC]

From everything jab mentions about the ki it sounds alot like a 109.  I dont remember the dive cababilities of the 84 from aw or wb, maybe I will have to pull out some old discs, but I thought it was on par with late war 109s as well.

Even weopon load seems about the same.  2 20s and 350 rpg on two heavy machine guns.

Jab your evaluation of the nik vs f4u is on the nose.  Wish I could have expressed my thoughts that clearly.

[Puke]

I like JAB's suggestions.

[brady]

Karnak, Wildcats were used with for example The US forces off Okinawa in 45 from Jeep cariers as you say they were flown from jeep CV's but they did particapate in the same area in in the same operations as the Helcats and F4U's.

 J_A_B:

   The F4U can still if flow properly disengage at will and just leave, it has enough of a spead advantage across the spectrum to do this, and most combate takes place low as you well, know, shure some tards will screw up blow their advantage and get killed, but by far and large the advantages the F4U has in preformance alone warents perking it (low) or limiting it in some way. All the US planes have a Gun advantage over the Japanese planes in that they have at least a 2 to 3 times effective hitting range advantage over their Japnaese counterpart's, Now the George is tougher than the other japanese fighters but not so thought that a good burst from those 50's cant get it.

[Puke]

The F4U can still if flow properly disengage at will and just leave, it has enough of a spead advantage across the spectrum to do this...

Oh, so now we fans of Big Blue have to fight the way you want us to fight.  

I can retort by saying a George flown properly can't be hit.

How about we flying Big Blue promise to throttle to 75% if the N1Ks promise to only turn at 3/4s their normal G and never hang on their prop?  ORrr, better yet... how about we paint N1Ks blue and green for each side and then everything is fair 'cause now everyone is flying the same stinkin' plane.  Unless you have trouble seeing green against the landscape.  Ahhh, okay, then.. paint them bright pink and yellow...  etc.   I'm sorry, one country took a design approach of rugged and fast while the other went for light weight and manueverability.

[brady]

My Primary concern is to creat a set up that is as balanced as it can be for both sides while maintaining as much historical imershion as I can. If that means limiting a certain plane or perking it to do so then thats what i will try and do, it does not mater when, whear, or what plane it is.

[Puke]

The point I thought being discussed was that in a comparison, you feel the Corsair so superior over the N1K (due to a level-flight top speed) that the Corsair needs to be perked or cannot play in any reindeer games.  For a fan of Big Blue, I think that reasoning is rubbish.  That's the only advantage the Corsair has, it can neither out-accelerate, out climb (and even out dive it seems to me from MA fights), out turn or out gun the N1K.  I don't see why this one difference makes for such a huge disparity in your mind.  But it's been clear for a long time which side you are sympathetic to and I think over cautious with.

Being a fan of the Hellcat and Corsair, bring on the N1K in the CT!  I'll finally get to fight how I was meant to fight.

[brady]

I appricate your input , give you the finger for acusing me of being biased, and will give your sugetions all the consideration I feal it merit's.

[J_A_B]

Brady, you're starting to not make sense.  Get some sleep  

First off, you seem to forget that the N1K is one of those planes that generates lots of complaints due to its ability to score kill shots at 800 yards or more.  This is the ONE Japanese fighter that the USN .50-armed fighters do NOT out-gun.  

Speed on the deck and at high altitude is the ONLY useful advantage the F4U has over the N1K.  In all other ways, the N1K absolutely owns the Corsair.   The  paltry ~10 MPH speed advantage the F4U has at the important 5-9K range is negated by the N1K's vastly better acceleration.


You claim that the F4 can dictate the fight.  Says who?  Put an F4 and an N1K co-alt, 8K or so and I can tell you which plane will dominate...it will NOT be the poor F4U.   In order to be able to dictate the fight, the F4 MUST start with altitude advantage....but you know what?  The reverse is also true--N1K's at 12K will utterly dominate F4U's at 7k.  The F4U's will NOT be able to safely run...the N1K accelerates like a demon, maintains useful controlability to at least 500 MPH, and will be lobbing dozens of 20mm shells at the fleeing F4 all the way down.  

Your comments would be true if we were discussing the A6M5--the Zero is absolutely outclassed by the F4U.  However the N1K2 is a different beast entirely and can definately hold its own vs the F4....all the wise N1K pilot needs to do is fly it with energy in mind instead of "turn till you puke".   The N1K makes a superb E-fighter, something few people seem to realize, and when flown as such it is shockingly dangerous.   It is a LOT more than the "Zero mk II" you seen to think it is.


In a F6F/F4U versus N1K situation, numbers and piloting skill will decide the outcome, not plane type.   This suggests the highly-organized dedicated Allied/US Naval squads that inhabit the CT would indeed probably win--but are you in the business of trying to create balanced setups, or handicap certain squads?

If you really ARE worried about the probable USN-based squads using their organization to smash the Axis side, then say so (and it certainly IS a potential issue).  At least then you'd be making good sense....plus with discussion somebody might ake headway in resolving the issue.


Absent outside factors, the N1K can do fine.


J_A_B

[brady]

"First off, you seem to forget that the N1K is one of those planes that generates lots of complaints due to its ability to score kill shots at 800 yards or more. This is the ONE Japanese fighter that the USN .50-armed fighters do NOT out-gun. "

   The Type 99MK II drops like a rock at over 400 if you want to spray and pray your whole ammo load away ya you can get hits but it's not science it is bad religon, the US 50 cal is bang on at that range, I have a lot of Kill's in the George I know what I am talking about.

"Speed on the deck and at high altitude is the ONLY useful advantage the F4U has over the N1K. In all other ways, the N1K absolutely owns the Corsair. The paltry ~10 MPH speed advantage the F4U has at the important 5-9K range is negated by the N1K's vastly better acceleration."

 Acording to the latest exceleration test's the george is almost identical to the F4U's in exceleration, the paltry 12 mph advantage the wildcat has in the Curent set up enables it to run away all the time, the envelope the F4U can acheave this in much larger over the George.

 From Fork's test:

 NIK2-J | 23.4 | 1.9
Spit IX | 23.6 | 1.9
F4U-1D | 23.8 | 1.9
F4U-1C | 24.0 | 1.9



"You claim that the F4 can dictate the fight. Says who? Put an F4 and an N1K co-alt, 8K or so and I can tell you which plane will dominate...it will NOT be the poor F4U. In order to be able to dictate the fight, the F4 MUST start with altitude advantage....but you know what? The reverse is also true--N1K's at 12K will utterly dominate F4U's at 7k. The F4U's will NOT be able to safely run...the N1K accelerates like a demon, maintains useful controlability to at least 500 MPH, and will be lobbing dozens of 20mm shells at the fleeing F4 all the way down."

  Your milage may very, but if the piolet suck the George will kill him, I am not advocating removing the hog from a set up of the approparate time frame just limiting it so that most of the fighting is between Hellcats, you and I both know that limiting is realy only a token effort because people will fly severalsectors to get themslef's the ride they feal they nead to have the advantage.

"Your comments would be true if we were discussing the A6M5--the Zero is absolutely outclassed by the F4U. However the N1K2 is a different beast entirely and can definately hold its own vs the F4....all the wise N1K pilot needs to do is fly it with energy in mind instead of "turn till you puke". The N1K makes a superb E-fighter, something few people seem to realize, and when flown as such it is shockingly dangerous. It is a LOT more than the "Zero mk II" you seen to think it is. "

 I have a lot of time in The George I used to fly it a lot, I used to fly the Hog a lot to, in fact I haver flow most everything a lot at one time or another while playing AH.

 


"In a F6F/F4U versus N1K situation, numbers and piloting skill will decide the outcome, not plane type. This suggests the highly-organized dedicated Allied/US Naval squads that inhabit the CT would indeed probably win--but are you in the business of trying to create balanced setups, or handicap certain squads?"

 I am beging to develope a decided distast for Blue plane flyer's who seam prety bull headed and have a real problem being objective. But I am tiered and not all of them are bellybutton holes:)

"If you really ARE worried about the probable USN-based squads using their organization to smash the Axis side, then say so (and it certainly IS a potential issue). At least then you'd be making good sense....plus with discussion somebody might ake headway in resolving the issue."

 See my last answer.

[ergRTC]

Brady, I think your position on this is getting pretty thin.  It is really starting to look like you are using your own impressions and abilities in a plane to determine its usefullness in the CT.  I dont see any reason not to use the nik2, and f4u1.  If you are scared of seeing a sky of f4u1s, you should see a therapist, not restrict the potential fun for the rest of us.

[Karnak]

I think the N1K2-J is a reasonable match for the F4U/F6F until you add the FM2 into the mix.  Then the N1K2-J is screwed.