Author Topic: Patriot Act  (Read 2445 times)

Offline SirLoin

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Patriot Act
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2003, 09:16:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
ACLU = American Communist Lawyers Union



BFFWRRRRRT!
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Dnil

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Patriot Act
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2003, 09:23:21 PM »
ACLU is not a good place for opinions.  I would also like to know, some of the gripes, from posters......

Offline lord dolf vader

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Patriot Act
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2003, 09:40:19 PM »
it is a reduction in freedom. what more is there to say,i am against it and the continued political career of anyone supporting it.


specifically i have a problem with the reducton in freedom. so the reduction in freedom would be my problem. with the people putting this abomination out in the light of day with the aime of reducing my freedom in the name of safty.

clear enough?

Offline funkedup

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Patriot Act
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2003, 09:50:15 PM »
Wow thanks for the specifics dolfy!

Offline Tumor

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Patriot Act
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2003, 09:59:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron

Maybe you and/or those complaining about this heinous act can save me some time by pointing out a specific section that is so objectionable?


The part that makes it illegal for them to do the stuff that leads to them doing things that are illegal.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline ra

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Patriot Act
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2003, 10:01:17 PM »
Quote
it is a reduction in freedom.

As is every bill ever passed.

Offline Erlkonig

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Patriot Act
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2003, 10:01:21 PM »
osama loves you, john90210, he really does

Offline Frogm4n

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Patriot Act
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2003, 10:02:15 PM »
they hate the aclu because the aclu fights for everyones rights to the full extent of the law, no matter what kind of POS they are. In my mind they would be hypocrites if they didnt do such.

Offline Dinger

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Patriot Act
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2003, 10:12:55 PM »
okay, just to cut-and-paste:
Quote

Third, there is no “national security” or “intelligence gathering” exception to the Constitution’s fundamental guarantees of individual liberty; as with all governmental powers, these powers are properly subject to checks and balances.


Does anybody give a damn?
As I stated at the time, I would rather the US endure a thousand WTCs, with myself and my family members as victims than see this great country sacrifice its fundamental liberties out of fear.  Why is it people have no problem sending our children off to war, to sacrifice their lives ostensibly so that some foreign citizens might live free of an evil dictator set on denying them their civil liberties, yet many of the same folks turn around and surrender those same liberties in this country, and they justify both acts by reference to the same guy?

Offline AKIron

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Patriot Act
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2003, 10:34:57 PM »
I meant to cut and paste from the "Patriot Act". Something that you find objectionable. I'm not saying there is nothing in there to be worried about, I'm just saying I haven't seen it and there seem to be many talking like it's the end of our freedom.

Clear enough now?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline AKIron

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Patriot Act
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2003, 10:37:12 PM »
All these posts and not one reference from the document itself. Other than the one I posted. Have any of you doom sayers read any of it at all?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline AKIron

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Patriot Act
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2003, 10:48:31 PM »
I reread your post Dinger. That does sound like an excerpt from the "Act". My apologies. However, I don't see what you find objectionable about that. It appears to me to be a reaffirmation that the "Act" does not supercede the Constitution. Wouldn't you agree?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline udet

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Patriot Act
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2003, 11:02:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron


(5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets.


 [/B]


maybe they'll show more skin :)

Offline Frogm4n

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Patriot Act
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2003, 11:15:51 PM »
The USA PATRIOT Act substantially altered a number of key legal authorities governing intelligence gathering within the United States, primarily by weakening judicial review and other checks and balances on government intelligence and law enforcement powers.  Some of the more significant changes include provisions that allow:

(1)   Secret access to sensitive personal records that previously were protected from disclosure in the absence of a grand jury subpoena (section 215);

(2)   Use of intelligence surveillance powers, instead of criminal surveillance powers, even where the “primary purpose” of the surveillance is criminal prosecution rather than the gathering of intelligence (section 218);

(3)   Use of “pen register” and “trap and trace” devices that capture detailed e-mail header and Internet URL information without an electronic surveillance order based on probable cause of criminal activity (sections 214, 216);

(4)   Secret searches that allow the government to delay, potentially indefinitely, notice of the execution of a search warrant in any criminal case (section 213);

(5)   Domestic intelligence wiretaps and other intelligence gathering at the direction of the Director of Central Intelligence, in spite of the statutory prohibition that bars the Central Intelligence Agency from exercising “internal security functions”[10] (section 901); and

(6)   Sharing of sensitive law enforcement information, such as grand jury information, with the intelligence community without the approval of a United States district judge (section 203).


they seem small, but they got to start somewhere, eh comrades!

Offline Sandman

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Patriot Act
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2003, 12:28:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
they hate the aclu because the aclu fights for everyones rights to the full extent of the law, no matter what kind of POS they are. In my mind they would be hypocrites if they didnt do such.


I don't believe the above statement is necessirly true. The ACLU has limited resources and they pick their fights.

A perfect example is the 2nd Amendment. You don't see much ACLU involvement there... of course, there's no reason to waste $$$ on it when the NRA has pretty much got that amendment covered.

FWIW, I'm a card carrying member (surprise!) and I firmly believe that the Constitution is worth defending.

Have you seen Patriot II?

This is what they have to say about it at EFF:

Quote
Privacy Invasions. USAPA II dramatically widens the powers of government to invade the privacy of Americans and others living here. This includes:
-Broad new authority to compel information from ISPs, friends, relatives, businesses and others, all without informing you.
-Immunity for businesses that voluntarily turn over your information to law enforcement.
-Extra punishment for use of cryptography-- no connection to terrorism needed.
-Instant police access to your credit reports upon certification that they are sought "in connection with their duties" -- again, with no connection to terrorism needed.
-Relaxed requirement of specificity for warrants for multi-use devices like PDAs and computers with telephonic capabilities.
-DNA collected from all terrorism suspects/DNA database information open to all law enforcement.
-Less judicial oversight of surveillance.

More "End Runs" Around Limitations on Surveillance and Information Sharing. Federal, state and local officials can now freely share information, regardless of the original reason for gathering it. This includes information in your credit reports, educational records and visa records. It also includes information obtained by administrative subpoenas of any business, from your ISP to your credit card company to your grocer. It also includes DNA database information and information obtained through the secret court processes of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Much of this sharing need not have any relationship to terrorism investigation.

Gag Orders and Increased Governmental Secrecy. The "sunshine of public review" is a key check on abuses of governmental power. But USAPA II makes it even harder for the public to evaluate what the government is doing with its broad new powers. USAPA II allows gag orders for subpoenas that force third parties to turn over information about their friends, loved ones or customers while making it unlawful for them to tell anyone except their lawyers about the subpoena. In a similar vein, the law creates broad new exceptions to the Freedom of Information Act for terrorism detainee information, prevents the Environmental Protection Agency from warning the public about environmental dangers from chemical releases and reduces the ability of judges to force the government to present its evidence in open court.

Expanded Reach of Powers under the Control of Secret Courts. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) was enacted more than 20 years ago to handle the special problem of non-criminal investigation of foreign intelligence activities in the United States. For this limited purpose, Congress established an unprecedented secret court system. USAPA expanded the reach of FISA and the secret court dramatically, and USAPA II goes even further. Under USAPA II, the secret court will be able to authorize searches of individuals with no connection to foreign governments or even terrorist organizations. It will increase the length of surveillance and decrease court oversight from the already low levels set by USAPA.

Not Targeted to Terrorism. As with its predecessor, USAPA II contains many provisions that appear to be nothing more than an opportunistic attempt to increase governmental powers in areas unrelated to terrorism. In other areas, while terrorism is included, the provisions are not limited to terrorism-related investigations. These include government access to credit reports, sentence enhancements for using encryption, and sharing of some FISA-obtained information.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2003, 12:35:35 AM by Sandman »
sand