Communism

[OIO]

Actually, "pure" communism is a benign form of goverment. Ideologically that is.

Problem is, only people like Stalin, Lenin, Mao,Castro, etc, etc used its name to please the masses to bring them to power, and then became brutal dictators. So in practice its been a failure.

Idea good, people bad.

[Frogm4n]

only 3,000 people were killed

only 3000 people died in the attack on the WTC. I cant understand why we are getting so upset over it?

we had no right takeing out a fairly elected government and setting up a dictatorship in chile. and why did we do it? for the all mighty dollar. dont fool yourself when you say we did it for " the good of the world". that is utter BS.

[GRUNHERZ]

It's not even a benign thing in ideas. The problem is that communism does not take humanity into consideration. It would all work if people were machines - like selfless robots in production line who gladly share resources (electrictity) in a common goal (product assembly) but people dont work that way. We have individual desires, aspirations, hopes, individual motivators and individal tastes and preferences. So in order for ideal communism to work all those must be suppressed - and thats why communism has always and will always be accompanied by repression and suprseeion of human desires and freedoms - it cannot work with free choice and liberty, it cannot work while individual unique human personalities are allowed to exist freely.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
only 3000 people died in the attack on the WTC. I cant understand why we are getting so upset over it?

we had no right takeing out a fairly elected government and setting up a dictatorship in chile. and why did we do it? for the all mighty dollar. dont fool yourself when you say we did it for " the good of the world". that is utter BS.

Just compare that to the benign caommunist governamce of cuba... And frankly 3000 political deaths in a country like chile over 17 years is hardly the making of the great evil communist losers are making pinochet out to be. Plus lets not forget pinochet gave up power in 1990 and democracy took over quite nicely, castro has not and his protege allende would likely have not.

The chilean military had a right to defend its country and oust a communist stooge and his marxist regime whose primary loyalty  had been to moscow and havana and not santiago.

[Saintaw]

To answer the original question:

What about the Chinese revolution ? wasn't it *initially* a popular movment?

[Frogm4n]

the only reason they would have had to depend on moscow is because we would have turned our backs on them. do you really think castro would still be in power if we would allow our corporations, money, and tourists into cuba? Do not underestimate the influence of the dollar on a society.


btw he honored the constitution of chile. We commited a crime against hummanity.

it was a freely elected government that honored the constitution of chile. Why should we have any say in the freedoms of another country? He commited no crimes against the people of chile, we did.

Maybe you were brainwashed in the old country if you do not believe the people of country cannot be allowed to freely elect their leaders.

[Frogm4n]

no i dont think china counts. i think we are only counting when it was elected in and not put in place by military coups that never put communism in place but set up military dictatorships.

[GRUNHERZ]

The chilean military had a right to defend their country from communists.

How exactly would US business help inflenvce them once castro kicked them out?

Look I think it basically comes down to fact that I hate communism and that it makes me very happy to see communists be defeated anywhere in the world.  You have different thoughts on the matter and so we honestly disagree. I think thats a fair thing to say.

[Frogm4n]

grun you hate it to the point that it violates human rights. thats the difference we have. i value a peoples freedom of choice more then anything. your hate of communism makes you turn a blind eye towards what happened in chile. the congress wasnt communist. the constitution was upheld. there would have been checks and balances. The purpose of the military is to serve take orders from the people, not make judgements for them.

Instead we commited a war crime and backed a military dictator that destroyed the people of chiles freedoms. open your eyes, this situation is far different then cuba, china, or all those other military coups. this was a freely elected president.

[OIO]

It is benign in its ideology grun, but like I said in my 1st post, and like you detailed it in your own post, it doesnt work because it is incompatible with one element:

people.

[GRUNHERZ]

Yep, so it is not  aconcidence every communist govt in history has try to eliminate that pesky "people" element as much as possible.

[Frogm4n]

very few governments havnt tried to eliminate the pesky people. the US government never killed off millions of people because they were in the way. never did they once intentionally use biowarfare on a people. wait yes they did.  


( not defending communism because it will never work, but just pointing out the flaws in your theory).

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Lizard3
Actually, whats so wrong with McCarthy? He foamed at the mouth a bit much, but he was what we needed, when we needed it. He exposed a number of commi's in our government for what they were. Commi trash. Anyway, we had McCarthy, what did you call the party people who jailed thousands on rumors alone? Godforbid someone speaks up against something or publishes some poetry in France. That will get ya 10 years in the gulags. Am I right?

Jewish? Disappear forever...

I'll take ignorance any day to being a slave of some dimwitted sadistic evil chosen few.

What about communism is positive? Upward mobility? When half your countrymen are dead, someones got to get the good jobs eh? In the early years there's no shortage of housing as half your neigbors are dead eh?

Communism is a disease. A disgusting putrid plague on humanity that is thankfully being removed from the body human.

Communism has wreaked more death and misery on humanity than any other form of governement  to date.

It has the right to de-exist.

Well, your idea of "horrors of Soviet regime" is very much wrong, influenced by too much Western propaganda tradition. In fact it is no more then anti-Russian propaganda first used in maybe XVIII century...

What we had here was not much worse then McCarthism and hysterical anticommunism in the US in 40s-60s.

Look at China. They did what USSR should have done, didn't drop the Communist ideology, but simply let people work, and don't pay much attention to "private property" and ideological aspects.

Soviet Socialism showed a great example of dedication and forced development in 1930s-50s. In fact "stalinism" was much closer to state capitalism then to what is called "socialism" in the West.

There are dozens of scenarios to develop dedicated and disciplined planned "stalinist" economics to more liberal and still effective system. One of them is Chinese way. We could try to have something special in late-80s, but instead the "elite" was completely bought by the enemy and thought only about a destruction of our country as a world power and souverign state.

I like some aspects of current situation in Russia and don't want to return to Soviet times, but I see many things that have to be done now, and looks like our current government is too busy filling their pokets to do it

[SaburoS]

Grunherz,
Why are you comparing Pinochet to Castro? Isn't the issue Allende and Pinochet? Allende was in office for about 3 years.
During his administration he didn't order the executions or jailings of political opponents. He didn't shut down opposition newspapers. He didn't try to control the media. He didn't declare martial law and install himself as a dictator.

Pinochet on the other hand....

[blitz]

Originally posted by Lizard3
Name the one nation that elected to change to a communist form of government in fair and free elections?

Chile,

that's why their government and thousands of people was murdered and tourtured with the help of the CIA

err wait it wasn't Communisimn, the people of Chile just elected a leader, in a fair and free election, american government disliked, so he has to die- no biggy - that's life


Regards Blitz


btw Kissinger is responsible for the assasination of General Schneider and should see the jail for it- dead or alive -> get him


America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- it was a classic Aggression War