Communism

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Lizard3
Actually, whats so wrong with McCarthy? He foamed at the mouth a bit much, but he was what we needed, when we needed it. He exposed a number of commi's in our government for what they were. Commi trash. Anyway, we had McCarthy, what did you call the party people who jailed thousands on rumors alone? Godforbid someone speaks up against something or publishes some poetry in France. That will get ya 10 years in the gulags. Am I right?

Jewish? Disappear forever...

I'll take ignorance any day to being a slave of some dimwitted sadistic evil chosen few.

This may be the winner of the scariest post of the year award. How sad.

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
the only reason they would have had to depend on moscow is because we would have turned our backs on them. do you really think castro would still be in power if we would allow our corporations, money, and tourists into cuba? Do not underestimate the influence of the dollar on a society.


btw he honored the constitution of chile. We commited a crime against hummanity.

it was a freely elected government that honored the constitution of chile. Why should we have any say in the freedoms of another country? He commited no crimes against the people of chile, we did.

Maybe you were brainwashed in the old country if you do not believe the people of country cannot be allowed to freely elect their leaders.

 Yes, I do think Castro would still be in power. He recieved massive aid from USSR, that didnt change a thing. Maybe you think US money has magic dust sprinkled on it. Sorry, we supported Nicaragua for the first 18 months after the "revolution" and it didn't change a thing.

Allende honored the constitution? Is that what you meant? Funny you should bring that up, but that was one of the charges against him before the coup took place. Please site an example of an example of these crimes against humanity we commited? You still refering to Chile? Do you really believe that or is that just something you heard and repeat every time the US is involved internationally? Explain these crimes? You mean destabalizing an already totering nation? A nation with a Marxist leader flirting with and getting aid from most every evil communist nation on earth? Nations who dont think twice about destabalizing/supplying arms/aid/money/advisors to export their brand of human misery and death. Does our crime have something to do with talking to some people who have the will and the means to take over this government , to intercept yet another attempt to export death and destruction into our hemisphere? Really? You cant be serious. Do you know how many Chileans would've died had it been allowed to go commi? If any of the other communist revolutions (which would've had to happen anyway to consolidate power) serve as an example, anywhere from 15 to 40 % of the population would've died. Not in 12 years, but within the first 2 years of them taking power.  Most by gunshots to the head, but many more later by starvation and torture.  Crime against humanity. Your full of ****.

OK, you say he commited no crimes against the people. The people seemed to think otherwise. Why all the demonstrations daily all over the country. OK, nationalizing the copper mines was kinda borderline, but the confiscation of other personal property wasn't was it? Oh, but your a Chilean constitutional lawyer, so you'd know that huh? The country was on the brink of anarchy. Inflation out of control, unemployment sky rocketing, massive demonstrations.

Besides, the Chilean military had a history of stepping in during catacalismic times. They'd already done it twice before to stabilize the country.

As for your question about wether groinhurtz believes people should be able to vote on there own leaders, well, I guess some of the Chileans did not. Now I refer you to the question that this whole thread is about. Can you name one? Can you? NO, you cant. Commi's dont believe in fair elections. They believe in murder, torture, explotation, lies, deception, the boot. Shame on you, "crime against humanity"...dolt...er, liberal.

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
grun you hate it to the point that it violates human rights. thats the difference we have. i value a peoples freedom of choice more then anything. your hate of communism makes you turn a blind eye towards what happened in chile. the congress wasnt communist. the constitution was upheld. there would have been checks and balances. The purpose of the military is to serve take orders from the people, not make judgements for them.

Instead we commited a war crime and backed a military dictator that destroyed the people of chiles freedoms. open your eyes, this situation is far different then cuba, china, or all those other military coups. this was a freely elected president.

 I refer you to my post above.

As to war crime, what crime did we commit? Did we supply the Chilean military with weapons? Did US troops actually do the deed? Did we send bombers and fighters to pound the innocent Chileans to pulp? No. We did none of these things. We talked to some people. OH MY! From what I've read, it was relatively bloodless as coups go.

How about Grenada? Was that a crime against humanity? No, I'm not talking about when we liberated the country, I'm talking about the coup that occured as a direct result of Cuban intervention? Were not the Cubans involved in Angola? How about the coup the Veitnamese funded in Cambodia? Wanna talk crimes? That was an absolute horror. Have you read anything about that one? Guatamala? El Salvador?

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
very few governments havnt tried to eliminate the pesky people. the US government never killed off millions of people because they were in the way. never did they once intentionally use biowarfare on a people. wait yes they did.  


( not defending communism because it will never work, but just pointing out the flaws in your theory).

Millions? Where and when? Biowarfare? You've got to be kidding me. Do you really believe that? Where, when?

(you are defending communism, your spouting party line propaganda as if were the truth.)

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Boroda
Well, your idea of "horrors of Soviet regime" is very much wrong, influenced by too much Western propaganda tradition. In fact it is no more then anti-Russian propaganda first used in maybe XVIII century...

What we had here was not much worse then McCarthism and hysterical anticommunism in the US in 40s-60s.

Look at China. They did what USSR should have done, didn't drop the Communist ideology, but simply let people work, and don't pay much attention to "private property" and ideological aspects.

Soviet Socialism showed a great example of dedication and forced development in 1930s-50s. In fact "stalinism" was much closer to state capitalism then to what is called "socialism" in the West.

There are dozens of scenarios to develop dedicated and disciplined planned "stalinist" economics to more liberal and still effective system. One of them is Chinese way. We could try to have something special in late-80s, but instead the "elite" was completely bought by the enemy and thought only about a destruction of our country as a world power and souverign state.

I like some aspects of current situation in Russia and don't want to return to Soviet times, but I see many things that have to be done now, and looks like our current government is too busy filling their pokets to do it

Explain to me how its wrong oh enlightnd one. The record of your countries inhumanity to its own people is not for debate. Its fact, supported by reams of evidence, most of it coming from your own coutry since the records have been opened. Stalin murdered, tortured and starved more "soviets" than Napolean and Hitler killed in both those wars with Russia/USSR. How many died in the terror famins institued by Lenin? 10 million at the least. TEN MILLION!
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famdefin.htm
http://hallasianhistory.com/asia/771.shtml
http://www.languagelanterns.com/hunger.htm

You say you had "not much worse here then McCarthism and hysterical anticommunism in the US in 40s-60s."
Are you blind deaf and dumb? What communism did to your country was far far worse than anything comparable in the history of the world. 70 years worth! How can you with any sliver of humanity in your soul actually sport a hammer and sicle as an avatar? It stands as an icon of something so horrible it almost dwarfs the swastika.

China? Now there's an example of good communists, huh? Still nothing but exploitive murdering thugs with no regard to humanity.

I'm skipping your second to the last paragraph as its pure blather, but that last one bothers me. What is it that you see that needs to be done? You actually have an opinion thats not cut and paste pravda blather? I'd like to hear it. Speak out. And...as for your politicians lining there pockets, thats been going on in most all governments since the begining of time. Even your former government official "lined there pockets". No? I bet you would if you could, but thats not the point. You stated that like it was a real bad thing. Like it bothered you. The suffering and death of MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of your fellow countrymen did not?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Lizard3
Millions? Where and when? Biowarfare? You've got to be kidding me. Do you really believe that? Where, when?

Defoliants in Vietnam?... If THIS wasn't biowarfare, then what is?

Originally posted by Lizard3
(you are defending communism, your spouting party line propaganda as if were the truth.)

Party propaganda was all true when they spoke about a danger from American imperialism. Your leaders have to be stopped. Unfortunately there is no more opposition to their insane ambitions. "Winning" the cold war meant the destruction of the world security system. No only WMD threat can secure any nation from agressors.

It's intersting that propaganda radios like Toad refused to discuss US policy in Latin America with me.

[miko2d]

What the heck are you people are talking about?

 There is no such thing as "communist form of government".

 Forms of government are literally how governments are formed: democracy, monarchy, oligarchy, etc.

 Communism is a framework of the social organisation - mostly determined by property rights - like capitalism, feudalism, tribalism, etc.

 Under communism there is no right for individuals to own property besides personal effects.

 Having "free elections" does not mean the country is/was a free country before it could have elected communism organisation of society.
 Being a free country has more to do with constitutional form of government - be it monarchy or republic than with elections. If a government can arbitrarily interfere with the rights and freedoms of the population, it is not a free country, even if the decision is adopted through a democratic process.
 BTW, all the freedoms and liberties and rights western culture considers its best achievements developed under constitutional monarchies, not democracies.

 For instance, (assuming we were still a free country living under Constitution), no amount of democratic voting could have deprived a person in US of his property or right to own property or to own guns or to practice a religion.
 You could elect a communist into government but there would not have been a constitutional way to convert USA into a communist country.


 Nazism was socialism - private and state property under government control.

 Marx did not ever said anything how he envisioned communist society, other than that he could practice one profession in the morning and another in the afternoon. Neither he described political arrangement of the communism that he "envisioned" but considering his sources - Sent Simone, Compte and Hegel, he most likely did not expect it to be a society with any personal freedoms. Which is natural since one cannot have personal freedom without property.

 miko

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Grunherz,
Why are you comparing Pinochet to Castro? Isn't the issue Allende and Pinochet? Allende was in office for about 3 years.
During his administration he didn't order the executions or jailings of political opponents. He didn't shut down opposition newspapers. He didn't try to control the media. He didn't declare martial law and install himself as a dictator.

Pinochet on the other hand....

With close ties to the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and North Veitnam, how long do you think it would've taken? He'd ridden the country to the brink of colapse, what was his next move?

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by midnight Target
This may be the winner of the scariest post of the year award. How sad.

Your a wuss and easily scared if this is the scariest of the year. Besides, there's 8 months left to go and 4 or 5 more of my posts in this thread to read.

You've been reading Libby, Libby, Libby on the Label, Label, Label a bit to much. Grow up, diversify, read a little broader subject matter.  

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Boroda
Defoliants in Vietnam?... If THIS wasn't biowarfare, then what is?

 

Party propaganda was all true when they spoke about a danger from American imperialism. Your leaders have to be stopped. Unfortunately there is no more opposition to their insane ambitions. "Winning" the cold war meant the destruction of the world security system. No only WMD threat can secure any nation from agressors.

It's intersting that propaganda radios like Toad refused to discuss US policy in Latin America with me.

LOL, thats truly funny. Bio-warfare agains TREES! OMG the horror. Let me clue ya in. The big ugly Ami's were fighting these little people that hid in caves and holes in the ground as well as in thick canopied JUNGLES. You guessed it. JUNGLES are primarily made up of TREES. To see and fight this slippery foe, we removed the TREES with DEFOLIANTS. The DEFOLIANTS killed the jungles, but, as is the nature of JUNGLES, they grew back fast. Then we had to kill the JUNGLES again and again. Later we found out that DEFOLIANTS ingested or applied to the skin in massive quantaties caused humans to get very sick.  BIO-WARFARE? NOT(unless you were a TREE)!

So, we had a war, a cold war, you lost. We did not invade your country, we just kept pace with your escalation of the arms race till your backwards economy colapsed. You seem to harbor anger over this. Were you inline to take over daddys post? Is that when the delusions and inablity to face facts appeared?

Seems to me that people have been debating central/south america in this thread for a number of days and you haven't contributed much. Searching for something on Pravda to cut-n-paste?

edit: Personally, I think Toad is one of the more level headed, informed, nuetral posters in the OH-CLUB. Did he disagree with you? Is that why you call him a "propaganda radio"?

[Boroda]

Lizard3, do you have an idea how to feed millions of people in times when there is almost no harvest at all, your country is boycotted by most of the "free world" and you don't have any gold to buy food abroad?

Ukrainian famine was a great disaster, but such things happened every 5-6 years before Communists came to power. Last great starvation happened here in 1947... It's stupid to blame Communists for STOPPING hunger in late-40s.

What Communism did to my country was saving it from total elimination by nazis. You should never, NEVER ever even compare Communists and nazis.

You don't know anything but propaganda about my country. You don't know anything about China too, only the things your media machine tells you.

It's hard to argue with blind and deaf people. I'll prefer to discuss some issues with Miko. At least we both know what we talk about. BTW, read his brilliant post about Communism. It can make you understand some things.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by vorticon
communism of today and even in russia at the start was nothing like what marx actually wanted...

you see in russia they brough EVERYONE down to the level of a pauper but what marx wanted was everyone to be brought up or down to the middle class...wich is why he said it would only really work in a place like england where much of the population already was middle class...

About the only thing I really remember about Marxism is what I learned in Business Economics 1 rather than what I learned in all of my Political Science and American History classes.  Chiefly, that Marx's initial philosophy was "from those of ability to those of need" and when he realized the lunacy of that position, he changed it to "from those of ability to those who work", which was only marginally better because he forgot that hard work doesn't always result in anything of value.  I can work hard all day digging a ditch with a shovel, but that doesn't mean I should get paid more than if I had worked less hard to write a well-thought out dissertation on political philosphy.  Which has more value: a pile of dirt or a paper that can educate hundreds of people and improve our society?

In my opinion, anyone who's trying to espouse Communism as a valid form of government is merely trying to use politics as a cover for looting national resources.  But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Boroda
Lizard3, do you have an idea how to feed millions of people in times when there is almost no harvest at all, your country is boycotted by most of the "free world" and you don't have any gold to buy food abroad?

Ukrainian famine was a great disaster, but such things happened every 5-6 years before Communists came to power. Last great starvation happened here in 1947... It's stupid to blame Communists for STOPPING hunger in late-40s.

What Communism did to my country was saving it from total elimination by nazis. You should never, NEVER ever even compare Communists and nazis.

You don't know anything but propaganda about my country. You don't know anything about China too, only the things your media machine tells you.

It's hard to argue with blind and deaf people. I'll prefer to discuss some issues with Miko. At least we both know what we talk about. BTW, read his brilliant post about Communism. It can make you understand some things.

Nope, not propaganda. Fact. Lenin starved and killed all the farmers and wealthy(?) peasants to advance his creation of the industrial proletariat.  Its well documented and not just by the "west".  All grain stocks, even the seed for future harvests were seized.
From your own archives is this report from an official of the Peoples Commissariat of Food from the Samara Region.

"Today there are no more revolts. we see new phenomena instead: crowds of thousands of starving people gather around the Executive Committee or the Part headquarters of the Soviet to wait, for days and days, for the miraculous appearance of food they need. It is impossible to chase this crowd away, and every day more of them die. They are dropping like flies...I think there must be 900,000 starving people in this province."

If you can, answer some of the questions I asked. State something besides "western propoganda". We're the one's who've dealt with liberal propoganda glossing over the evils while blaming the US for every problem in the world. If there's been any propoganda about, its been fed from leftists to the media.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Lizard3
LOL, thats truly funny. Bio-warfare agains TREES! OMG the horror. Let me clue ya in. The big ugly Ami's were fighting these little people that hid in caves and holes in the ground as well as in thick canopied JUNGLES. You guessed it. JUNGLES are primarily made up of TREES. To see and fight this slippery foe, we removed the TREES with DEFOLIANTS. The DEFOLIANTS killed the jungles, but, as is the nature of JUNGLES, they grew back fast. Then we had to kill the JUNGLES again and again. Later we found out that DEFOLIANTS ingested or applied to the skin in massive quantaties caused humans to get very sick.  BIO-WARFARE? NOT(unless you were a TREE)!

So trees are not alive? they are not "biological objects"? Interesting POW.

Killing harvests and spreading toxic substances isn't biowarfare? interesting. BTW, how many US servicemen suffered from "agent orange"? including genetic anomalies? And how many Vietnamese, I wonder?...

Originally posted by Lizard3

So, we had a war, a cold war, you lost. We did not invade your country, we just kept pace with your escalation of the arms race till your backwards economy colapsed. You seem to harbor anger over this. Were you inline to take over daddys post? Is that when the delusions and inablity to face facts appeared?

The defeat of USSR in a cold war was a great trouble for my country. We literally broke our neck trying to compete with a nation that never had a war and used other wars only as a commercial enterprises. The very fact that we could oppouse you for almost 50 years is amazing. Unfortunately we couldn't last forever.

We could refrain from the "arms race" but in that case I'm 100% sure we'll have all our cities nuked by 1952-53 according to "Charioter", "Fleetwood" or "Dropshot".

Originally posted by Lizard3

Seems to me that people have been debating central/south america in this thread for a number of days and you haven't contributed much. Searching for something on Pravda to cut-n-paste?

edit: Personally, I think Toad is one of the more level headed, informed, nuetral posters in the OH-CLUB. Did he disagree with you? Is that why you call him a "propaganda radio"?

Chilie is not alone in the line of American crimes in Latin America. I am not a specialist in L.A. history, but I know some things.

Pravda "cut-and-paste" is not my specialisation. I enjoy a 99.5% freedom of speech that we have here. 0.5% includes war propaganda (Yes!) and nationalistic/fascist things.  My POV doesn't comply with official Russian views, and sometimes is absolutely different.

Toad is a very well informed person, and sometimes I even share his views. The problem is that speaking about my country he speaks only what they told him on army political informations or whatever it is called in the US. He refuses to use any commin sence at all. He keeps baiting me for being not sure that it were evil Russians who killed Polish officers in Katyn, despite of the fact that Burdenko comission report was signed by Allied representatives.

His point is that Russians are to blame for all evil in the world, that they invaded and occupied every country in Europe while US of North A is a Light of Freedom and Good.

[miko2d]

The USSR was not really "defeated" - neither by Reagan in Cold War not by Ossama Bin Laden in the Afghan war nor by ukrainian separatists.

 The government damaged it's country's economically and the populaton used the ease of some restrictions by Gorbachev to peacefully change their society somewhat.
 Those things happen. When US government's erroneous fiscal actions caused a huge damage to the US and world economy by causing the Great Depression, the capitalism was blamed and introducing full-blown socialism in US was seriously considered.

 A very minor changes in the society - like the chinese agriculture organisaton or just allowing peasants to own 2 rather than 1 acre of land as personal plots could have kept the old organisation indefinitely - like in China.

 Russians certainly do not perceive themselves as defeated nation, whatever Boroda thinks.
 One can say that "communism" as a phylosophical concept was defeated, but that is far from truth - there are plenty of communists here in US, probably more than in Russia.

P.S. Chilie was not an american "crime". Ponochet was not a US puppet - he was a quite capable and independed man. He actually introduced free market reform on the advice of the Chicago School of economics - not what US pressures it's puppets to do, which is borrow, tax and spend.

 miko