Author Topic: French Soldiers Are Brave  (Read 1657 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2003, 09:32:16 AM »
Me Dowding? Nah...

Your whole thing was just trying to change the subject to protect your cowrdly french saddam loving communist idols ;) - it had nothing to with the thread. However I did see it as an opportunity to educate you about croatian military history.. :D

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2003, 12:24:08 PM »
I'd started reading "Street Without Joy" right after finishing "We Were Soldiers Once...and Young" but then I went on vacation and got started on "Raising the Hunley" and that led me to "The Sea Hunters" by Clive Cussler.  I do plan on getting back to "Street Without Joy" as soon as I finish Cussler's book.

I was under the impression that the Dien Bien Phu situation was fought by the French Foreign Legion comprised mostly of German combat vets.

Offline batdog

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2003, 12:26:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
xBat it's up to you to do a search about de Gaulle and the 4eme DCR in 1940.


Well... I read he wanted to use his armor in a much more modern manner than the inbreeds over him Straffo. I remember that

I still dont know if I'd rate him w/Guderian,Rommel,Mannstien(sp?),Patton,Montgomery etc though. He never had much of chance to prove me otherwise.
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline batdog

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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2003, 12:31:11 PM »
http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_degaulle.html

Well... egg on my face. He rates w/Napoleon.
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2003, 04:46:27 PM »
a whole bunch of the shooters in the ffl were german vets from wwii in the years after wwii. i think all the officers in ffl are french. french military ive come across were good at their job. a warrior is a warrior is a warrior. some end up working for idiots and some dont.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2003, 05:05:57 PM »
Surprise surprise xBat ;)

I even read somewhere that "Vers l'armée de métier" (The Army of the Future) inspired the creation of the panzer divison ...
I don't know if it's an urban legend but in 1934 this book was pretty visionnary .

Even if I don't allways agree with de Gaulle vision/idea I think he his the most important french politician of last century.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2003, 05:10:47 PM »
According to Fall, there were some German nationals at  Dien Bien Phu but not nearly as many as stated in some reports.  There was a mixture of Frenchmen, Algerians, Vietnamese, Montagnards, Germans, and a few others I am forgetting.  There were not all Foreign Legion units.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 05:20:28 PM by funkedup »

Offline metronom

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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2003, 05:46:59 PM »
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Also Croatian/Serb partisans made tons and tons of trouble for the german army and tied up many divisions including SS units and paratroopers


I thought you don't like the communist?
As I know the Yugoslav Partisans where mostly communist. And the Croatian Ustashas where pure fascist. :o

metronom

Offline Dune

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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2003, 06:04:06 PM »
Not only does it have one of the best book titles ever, but the book itself was amazing.  I would also recomend Fall's book, A Street Without Joy, which refers to France's struggles to keep open Highway 1, the road that connnected Hanoi with Haiphong Harbor.  However the book gives an overview of the politics and history surrounding the French Indo-China War.  Also an excellent book.

Another two books to read if you're interested in this period of France's history are Praetorians and Centurians by Jean Larteguy, .  These two great books are works of historical fiction.  They detail what the Legionaire Para's went through in the Viet Minh camps, their release and their return to Algeria.  The second book covers the reasons why they decided to revolt against the Republic and installed DeGaulle as president.  A move which backfired against them as DeGaulle gave Algeria its freedom.  This caused members of the Legion to try and assisinate DeGaulle becuase they felt betrayed by him.  In return DeGaulle came very close to disbanding the Legion entirely.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2003, 07:48:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by metronom
I thought you don't like the communist?
As I know the Yugoslav Partisans where mostly communist. And the Croatian Ustashas where pure fascist. :o

metronom


Well some were communists but many also were not. The funny thing is most craotians would not have become partisans except for the fact that the ustase gave a bunch of country away to the italians.  In fact most croatians were quite happy to see the german invasion and we welcomed them as liberators and friends because of our good experience and close cultural contact with "german" stuff in the austrian empire and bad experiences with the serb dominated post ww1 kingdom. It was only after hitler and the ustase gave all that land away to italy that so many croatians joined partisans and did the resisance - otherwise, for good or bad, its likely we would have good honest allies to germany based on our close cultural relationship. FWIW germany was the first country to recognize croatian independance in 1991.

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2003, 08:39:29 PM »
Ustashe Croatia's conduct during WW2 was barbaric and disgraceful.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2003, 08:41:59 PM »
Absolutely, even the SS complained about their behavior...  :eek:

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2003, 09:28:15 PM »
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Ustashe Croatia's conduct during WW2 was barbaric and disgraceful.


i dont know much about every aspect of croatia in wwii but antipartisan warfare was always brutal. usually partisan arent soldiers dont have same type of professional respect for other soldiers. soldiers find their buddies with feet cut off or skinned alive and then not very likely to treat partisan with decency if they take them alive at all. anyone who gurantees that they wouldnt take reprisals or refuse capture on enemy partisan and such if they found their best buddy skinned alive is lying.

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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2003, 10:15:53 PM »
Grunherz, you very conveniently glossed over Croatia's stance as an Axis member in WW2. Not a glorious period in your history. Fighting for the Nazis on the one hand and fighting against them on the other.  But I know Croatians personally and know the history.  
Your distaste for the French is amusing considering the way Croatia didn't even surrender but simply joined the Axis straight away and many collaborated right to the end.  Even the Vichy French didn't do that.You mentioned the top scoring Croatian ace, didn't he fly an Me109 against the allies?

On top of which Tito who was Croatian was also a Communist as were all those partizans. Something you equally dislike.

On cowardice, I know an ex Croatian soldier who told how he had to force his men to stand up and fight and how one officer had to threaten to shoot anyone who wouldn't fire back at the Serbs. Croats committed one or two atrocities too, not just the Serbs.

You know that saying: People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I daresay most of your American friends know little of this. But you know it well but you try to make up for it by constantly and irritatingly and fanatically proclaiming your devotion to the United States. You're more American than any American. 'Methinks you protest too much' Yeah we know you love America, so do I but give it a rest.  Try and get the principle: America is a free country, you are allowed to dissent and call Bush an idiot. That's what happens in free countries. The government or the police won't arrest you for that. They ignore you. That why you went there isn't it?  So enjoy that freedom and stop trying to turn America into some sort of neo fascist state like the old country.

For the Americans:
The French are no cowards, they were invaded by their powerful militarist neighbour three times in less than a hundred years. Sure they were all over the place in WW2 but they were in it from the beginning and took the brunt of it and Nazi occupation for four years. 20 years earlier they held back the Germans along with the British for another fours years. Before that in 1870, Paris was occupied by the Prussians.

That kind of thing colours your world view quite significantly.

The British would have suffered much the same sort of fate if it was not for the geographical convenience of the channel.

Anyone who sneers at the French really needs to get their facts right.  Sure Chirac was particularly perverse in his opposition to Bush's  plans but hey he is the leader of a soverign and free country, the one whose own revolution inspired the American revolution. So he is entitled to differ from America. I disagreed with him but I defend France's right to differ. It's not America's world yet.

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2003, 12:46:28 AM »
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Originally posted by blue1
Sure Chirac was particularly perverse in his opposition to Bush's  plans but hey he is the leader of a soverign and free country, the one whose own revolution inspired the American revolution. So he is entitled to differ from America. I disagreed with him but I defend France's right to differ. It's not America's world yet.


sorry dude but the slack i cut french warriors due to professional respect in no way applies to their piece of **** leader. french intel was supplying iraq military with data they used while fighting American military. french government supplied high rank iraqis with false eu based passports. those are two of many cases where france acted well beyond diplomatically opposing American led military action. chirac is a leader of a sovereign and a free country and he ****ed up in a big way because he allowed things to happen and be done that are going to cost his sovereign and free country alot of goodwill around the globe once all the facts come out. disagreeing is one thing. directly aiding the wartime enemy of a supposed ally is beyond the pale. im not surprised tho. it was pretty amusing that war criminals around bosnia suddenly stopped "slipping out the back door at the last possible moment" once the french were cut out of the loop when it came to planning snatch ops against wanted war criminals. you can respect french warriors and accept that their leaders are scum at the same time.