Author Topic: Here's something you Yanks should understand  (Read 4018 times)

Offline Syzygyone

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2003, 05:03:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Heyas Curval:)

Just give some thought to what industries and new innovations were born from those dollars invested....medical, scientific and consumer windfalls resulted directly from money invested in the space programs. Let's take a look....



Hey!!! Let's not forget about Tang!:)

Just take a poke around the net for more detailed info.

Cyas Up!


Repost - Move ON!
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85789&highlight=space

Offline Curval

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11572
      • http://n/a
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2003, 05:17:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I refer you to my response to Curval.

If a General Ledger is what you're after, I understand Curval has the education to produce one regarding this topic, for a fee of course.

Just some advice for you Curval....I'de get a personal financial statement from Dowding before I would even sharpen my pencil...talks cheap ya know:)


LOL.

We don't use pencils anymore Rude.  It's all done with computers these days.;)

Impossible to quantify the gain/loss from what you propose Rude.  Bill Gates couldn't afford all the accountants required to figure it out, so Dowding's gonna have to go without his G/L.  How could you possibly calculate the value to society of those neat little space saving juice containers my kids drink from, for example.  

Fact is though, one must compare apples to apples for the sake of this discussion old chap.

The purpose for which a space craft is employed is to transfer people and equipment into space.  Concorde was employed to transfer people from country to country.  For their specified purpose they both resulted in a loss.  One was much much greater than the other.

..and by the way, I'm not trying to downplay the important influence that space exploration has had on technological, medical and manufacturing innovation.  I have one better example though...

war.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2003, 07:02:06 PM »
Well of course war, but if I had said that then Dowding and Co. would have spouted....trying hard to get along ya know:)

I still maintain that to simplify the comparison by limiting the space program to only freight hauling is deceptive....further, to compare the Concorde to Nasa in the first place is convenient for some.

Now if you compare the whole ROI of both endeavors without restriction, it's really not worth discussing...like you said, apples and oranges. NASA's efforts are funded for national returns...a broad in scope enterprise which has yielded much.

In comparision, the joint effort of the Concorde is no comparison at all....just an attempt to say, hey look what we did and it failed.
Remember, I'm talking about the money invested in each program and the camparitive return....do you see the Concorde as yielding a return percentage wise to that of the US Space Program? Yes, the US spent much more over time, however, the yield was greater as well....it's relative.

What would you personally have invested in....the Concorde or the 747?:)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 07:09:59 PM by Rude »

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2003, 07:18:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Swoop
Are you building an SST?

And is there anything major any nation has built in recent years with zero outside assistance?  I mean totally zero.

Oh and you do know the Statue of Liberty was a French gift, right?  You often in the habit of accepting gifts from the French?  You gonna give it back now cos it's French?



Well, we looked at doing it, but realized it wouldn't cashflow...built the 747 instead.

We cooperate with many nations....the question is could we do it alone? Yes.

Freedom for Europe was a gift as well....fair exchange I guess...big concrete statue....life and free to boot....I don't know man, it's a close one:)

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2003, 01:44:13 AM »
Quote
Well, we looked at doing it, but realized it wouldn't cashflow...built the 747 instead.


That definitely was NOT the timeline of events.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2003, 05:29:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


NASA is in turmoil.  They have now had two multi-billion dollar machines blow up in front of the whole world.



I hope you will agree that orbital flight is much closer to the extreme of the envelope than atmospheric flight.  

The first flight of Columbia was 1981, 80? Only about 5 years after Concord(e)'s first operational flight, I think that was in '76?

Two incredible machines developed more or less concurrently, or at least with nearly the same level of technology for the developers to start out with.

The shuttle needs the next generation, and so does the Concord(e) After all, it was probably by far the oldest aircraft in the stable of AF and BA.  Present age of the commercial aircraft fleet is typically about 10 years.

Saying that because NASA doesn't make a profit therefore justifies the lack of profitablity for SST service doesn't hold water.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 07:34:38 AM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2003, 10:39:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
That definitely was NOT the timeline of events.


I'm not speaking to a timeline Dowding....the fact remains that the US abandoned it's efforts to build a SST and banked on the 747 to carry the load regarding commercial air travel. The reason for this was that we realized that you can't cashflow a SST due to the high cost involved. If you can't understand that simple fact of business or believe that what I've stated is false, then please provide a factual rebuttal and I'll gladly stand down.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2003, 10:45:04 AM »
You seriously think the Concorde was designed as a capacity carrier? To make up the bulk of an airline's fleet? You make it sound like the 747 and Concorde were penned from the same specifications, and that Boeing decided to go the 747 route as a natural alternative to the Concorde.

I've asked you for a factual rebuttal of the assertion that the Shuttle made no money considering the investment. I've yet to see one.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2003, 01:00:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
You seriously think the Concorde was designed as a capacity carrier? To make up the bulk of an airline's fleet? You make it sound like the 747 and Concorde were penned from the same specifications, and that Boeing decided to go the 747 route as a natural alternative to the Concorde.

I've asked you for a factual rebuttal of the assertion that the Shuttle made no money considering the investment. I've yet to see one.


I guess the assumption I made was that the joint venture between the Brits and the French was to, in the end, be profitable? Or was this a hey..... look what we can do thing without profit being a part of the equation? You tell me. Further, I merely stated fact....if you want to make assumptions as to what my meaning was so it will suit your needs, then knock yourself out....I remain unimpressed with the effort.

The British documentary that I watched spoke to the fact that it was hoped by both parties to be a profitable venture and that, yes, many more SST's would be built and flying. It failed....thus a more devoted and focused effort was directed towards Airbus by all involved.

Quote
The whole space race for starters. You've got a plethora of examples right there spanning decades, as someone already pointed out. It was done because of national prestige more than anything else and was hugely expensive.


 It is to the above that I responded to....you are correct regarding the national pride. If you cannot see by my posts regarding our space program, that indeed it was profitable to our nation, which funds NASA btw, then you my young friend have eyes, yet cannot see.

I was not the one who compared only the Shuttle program to that of the SST....I simply stated that our space program as a whole has yielded a real dollar return based on the monies invested throughout its history.

Are you unable to disprove the above, or would you prefer I waste more of my time?

This is the problem I have with you Dowding....you feel the need to show us all how intellectual and well versed you are, covering a wide spectrum of topics...you stand in judgement of others and more specifically my country....by convenience you offer your opinion as fact, when the truth is that you are just a young man suffering from what most all young men suffer from, youthful omniscience.

You lack the humility to admit you're wrong regarding any topic brought before the readers of this board....rather, you ridicule those here who can't match your clever offerings.

Hopefully you'll grow out of it
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 01:08:13 PM by Rude »

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2003, 01:20:41 PM »
I'll ignore the psychiatric evalutation, wade through the waffle, not rise to the patronising tone or the pathetically veiled insults and cut to the chase. Brevity, old bean, brevity.

Quote
I simply stated that our space program as a whole has yielded a real dollar return based on the monies invested throughout its history.

Are you unable to disprove the above, or would you prefer I waste more of my time?


Why should I disprove your assertion? I've asked you to prove this 'fact' as you present it. You haven't done that and furthermore insist that I should disprove it. If you can't see how ridiculous that is...
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline TPIguy

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 333
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2003, 01:32:38 PM »
Come on, didn't you guys see Armageddon? If it wasn't for the US space program (and Bruce Willis) the whole planet would be lifeless by now.

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2003, 01:37:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
I'll ignore the psychiatric evalutation, wade through the waffle, not rise to the patronising tone or the pathetically veiled insults and cut to the chase. Brevity, old bean, brevity.



Why should I disprove your assertion? I've asked you to prove this 'fact' as you present it. You haven't done that and furthermore insist that I should disprove it. If you can't see how ridiculous that is...


Are you blind? Look back thru this very thread for your answer....sheesh!

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2003, 01:56:50 PM »
Quote
The results from the space program, or "spin-offs" as they are sometimes called, have been much more than a handful of moon "rocks" or Tang powdered drink. To simply count these very tangible outputs from space exploration is a gross underestimation of what our "space dollars" have produced for us over the years. Consider, for example, the progress in telecommunications, which was, and is, a true revolution in how we live our lives. The space program largely contributed to the existence of the Global Positioning Satellites-- at first a marvelous intelligence tool, now a standard fixture in new cars. The technologies prevalent in cellular transmission and data compression had their origins, or were perfected, in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's space effort. Similarly, we gained extensive knowledge on new materials and their behavior in extreme conditions, avionics, telemetry, sensor technology and even innovative large-scale project management techniques.


and......

Artificial Limbs

Responding to a request from the orthopedic-appliance industry, NASA
recommended that the foam insulation used to protect the Shuttle's
external tank replace the heavy, fragile plaster used to produce
master molds for prosthetics. The new material is light, virtually
indestructible, and easy to ship and store.


Lifesaving Light

Special lighting technology developed for plant-growth experiments on
Space Shuttle missions is now used to treat brain tumors in children.
Doctors at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee use
light-emitting diodes in a treatment called photodynamic therapy, a
form of chemotherapy, to kill cancerous tumors.


Taking Temperatures

Infrared sensors developed to remotely measure the temperature of
distant stars and planets for the Space Shuttle program led to the
development of the hand-held optical sensor thermometer. Placed inside
the ear canal, the thermometer provides an accurate reading in two
seconds or less.


Better Balance

Devices built to measure the equilibrium of Space Shuttle astronauts
when they return from space are now widely used by major medical
centers to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke,
chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system.


Faster Diagnostics

NASA technology was used to create a compact laboratory instrument for
hospitals and doctor offices. This device quickly analyzes blood,
accomplishing in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes with
conventional equipment.


Land Mine Removal

The same rocket fuel that helps launch the Space Shuttle is now being
used to save lives -- by destroying land mines. A flare device, using
leftover fuel donated by NASA, is placed next to the uncovered land
mine and is ignited from a safe distance using a battery-triggered
electric match. The explosive burns away, disabling the mine and
rendering it harmless.


Tracking Vehicles on Earth

Tracking information originally used for Space Shuttle missions now
helps track vehicles here on the ground. This commercial spin-off
allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Many cities
today use the software to track and reassign emergency and public
works vehicles. The technology also is used by vehicle fleet
operations, such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying
hazardous cargo.


Rescue 911

Rescue squads have a new extrication tool to help remove accident
victims from wrecked vehicles. The hand-held device requires no
auxiliary power systems or cumbersome hoses and is 70 percent cheaper
than previous rescue equipment. The cutter uses a miniature version of
the explosive charges that separate devices on the Space Shuttle.


Byte Out of Crime

Image-processing technology used to analyze Space Shuttle launch
videos and to study meteorological images also helps law enforcement
agencies improve crime-solving videos. The technology removes defects
due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences.
The technology also may be useful for medical imaging, scientific
applications and home video.


Gas Gauges

A gas leak-detection system, originally developed to monitor the
Shuttle's hydrogen propulsion system, is now being used by the Ford
Motor Company in the production of a natural gas-powered car.


Product Labeling

NASA needs to identify, track, and keep records on each of the
thousands of heat-shield tiles on the Space Shuttle. This required a
labeling system that could be put on ceramic material and withstand
the rigors of space travel to be readable after a flight. NASA
developed high data-density, two-dimensional, machine-readable symbol
technology used to mark individual tiles. This novel method of
labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings
can be used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock -- in
fact on just about anything.


Keep Cool Under Fire

Materials from the Space Shuttle thermal protection system are used on
NASCAR racing cars to protect drivers from the extreme heat generated
by the engines. This same material is also used to protect
firefighters.


Fire Resistant Foam

A unique foam developed for Space Shuttle thermal insulation and
packing is now being used as thermal and acoustical insulation in
aerospace, marine and industrial products. Since it's also fire
resistant, it's being used as well for fire barriers, packaging and
other applications requiring either high-temperature or very
low-temperature insulation in critical environments. For example, use
of these foam products by airframe manufacturers such as Boeing,
Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus provides major weight savings, while
retaining good thermal and acoustical properties in the various
products.


Fire Sighting

A sensitive, gas infrared camera, used by NASA observers to monitor
the blazing plumes from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters is
also capable of scanning for fires. Firefighters use this hand-held
camera to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires that rage out of control.


Jeweler's Gem

Jewelers no longer have to worry about inhaling dangerous asbestos
fibers from the blocks they use as soldering bases. Space Shuttle
heat-shield tiles offer jewelers a safer soldering base with
temperature resistance far beyond the 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit
generated by the jeweler's torch.


Jet Stripping

NASA developed a tool that uses powerful jet streams of water to strip
paint and primer from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. A
commercial version of this water jet is now used to treat
turbine-engine components, airframe components, large aerospace
hardware, ships and other mechanical devices, using only pure water.
No hazardous chemicals are needed.


Quick Fit Fasteners

Fastening items in space is a difficult task. A Virginia company
developed a fastener that can be pushed on, rather than turned. These
quick-connect fasteners are flexible and strong, and have been used by
NASA astronauts since 1989. The product is now in use by firefighters
and nuclear power-plant repair technicians, and has other commercial
applications.


Computer Joysticks

Computer games can now be played with all the precision and
sensitivity needed for a safe and soft Space Shuttle touchdown. A
game-controlling joystick for personal computer-based entertainment
systems was modeled after controls used in shuttle simulators.
Astronauts used the joystick to practice runway landings and orbit
maneuvering.


Toys for Tots

Already successful with its Nerf toy products, Hasbro, Inc. wanted to
design a toy glider that a child could fly. Benefiting from NASA
wind-tunnel and aerodynamic expertise used in the Space Shuttle
program, Hasbro improved the flying distances and loop-to-loop stunts
of its toy gliders.


Slick Products

A lubricant used on the transporter that carries a Space Shuttle to
the launch pad has resulted in a commercial penetrating-spray lube,
which is used for rust prevention and loosening corroded nuts. It's
also a cleaner and lubricant for guns and fishing reels, and can be
used to reduce engine friction.

Do I really need to continue?

Perhaps it's not too late for some post graduate work in the field of common sense?

I'm done.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2003, 02:01:43 PM »
Nice qualitative data. I think I was pretty clear that I actually wanted the quantitative information that you base your assertions on. How much was spent actually trying to get the Shuttle up there and those technologies developed?

I don't doubt money was made - I really have issues with the fact that a profit was turned, which was the whole crux of the issue.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Rude

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4609
Here's something you Yanks should understand
« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2003, 04:24:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Nice qualitative data. I think I was pretty clear that I actually wanted the quantitative information that you base your assertions on. How much was spent actually trying to get the Shuttle up there and those technologies developed?

I don't doubt money was made - I really have issues with the fact that a profit was turned, which was the whole crux of the issue.


Like I have the time to indulge you with quantitative data...couldn't find it if I had the time...just stop will ya?

Herein lies a common ailment of those whose educations are deemed lord of all....the lack of common sense. If you cannot see how contiguous profits were recognized by the those industries downline of the space program, then I quit.

Here's a perfect example....read it and then multiply by some thousands of US companies.



Quote
NASA Computer Imaging Technology Is Helping Commercial Firm See New Jobs And More Profits
April 1997
Bio-Imaging Research, Inc., (BIR) of Lincolnshire, Ill., is seeing new employees in its plant and more profits at the end of the year, all thanks to their commercializing computer imaging technologies developed for NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.

The Advanced Computed Tomography Inspection System (ACTIS) was put into service at Marshall in 1989 to find imperfections in aerospace structures and components such as rocket motor casings, assemblies and nozzles used in the Space Shuttle program. ACTIS helped NASA engineers characterize structural assemblies by producing high-quality computed tomography (CT) images. These images demonstrated the ablative properties of various solid rocket motor nozzle assembly materials and revealed anomalies at bondline interfaces that could have caused mission failures. The two-million-volt ACTIS system at Marshall has also found flaws in turbine and valve castings for NASA.

Having proven its potential in the national space program, the system was used to scan an entire automobile, as well as large castings used in the automotive industry. It has scanned a cruise missile's jet engine. A similar ACTIS at Boeing has scanned a complete satellite, avoiding the time and expense of opening it, then resealing and resterilizing it. It has also verified the safety of spaceborne battery packs.

BIR undertook to refine the technology for broader commercial applications, introducing a smaller, PC-based version called ACTIS+ for general industrial use. BIR spokesman Charles Smith said recently, "ACTIS+ provides CT imaging capability at less than a third the cost of current CT systems."

CT itself is a technology derived partly from the Apollo space program of the 1960's and partly from the field of medicine. CT creates cross-sectional images by projecting a thin beam of x-rays through one plane of an object from many different angles. In some scanners, a cone beam covers an area detector so that many slices or a volume can be scanned at once.

Millions of people around the world benefit each year from the medical applications of the technology. Hospitals use CT scanners to help diagnose illnesses and assess injuries. The technology also was quickly adopted by industries for non-destructive testing.

The key to the low cost of ACTIS+ is that it is designed to be added to existing real-time radiography (RTR) systems. It uses major RTR components and can eliminate the expense of an x-ray system and a detector system.

The ACTIS+ system consists of a high-precision rotation/elevation manipulator, a color image monitor, a graphical user interface monitor, a keyboard with mouse, and a Unix-based PC compatible workstation. "From our viewpoint," Smith says, "one of the most important commercial applications of the technology came when Marshall allowed us to scan a 55-gallon drum containing cement, metal parts, liquids, and other materials. This allowed us to demonstrate to the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) that computed tomography is much better at seeing what is inside drums of radioactive waste than any existing techniques."

The tests at Marshall led to the development of Waste Inspection Tomography (WIT), a trailer-mounted portable system that can be taken to waste dump sites to identify the contents in drums found there. "We have written software that enables us to combine three-dimensional x-ray CT images of the drum's contents with three-dimensional gamma-ray information on where the radioactivity is inside the drum. To our knowledge," said Richard Bernardi, program manager for WIT, "this is the only non-medical application that presents two different types of sensor information in a single picture. BIR has gone even further by adding a third sensor that provides information on the distribution of neutron emitters, such as plutonium, into the three-dimensional image."

The main sensor in the WIT trailer is a two-million-volt CT system. The voltage is able to see through drums filled with high-density material, such as cement or sludge, which cannot be penetrated by other x-ray systems used by the DOE. While the scanner can provide "quick look" images, its primary value is in making volume CT images comprised of more than 75 individual slices. Two gamma cameras image the internal radioactivity and their output can be presented in either two- or three-dimensional form. Special software allows their images to be accurately superimposed on the density images from the CT scanner. The radioactivity is measured by nuclear spectroscopy, which determines its gamma-ray energies and then looks up that energy in a table to identify individual isotopes. The system can distinguish between weak internal sources surrounded by low-density material and a shielded stronger source.

It can also identify and measure the volume of potentially corrosive free liquids, the extent to which the storage drum's wall may have been thinned by corrosion, and the presence of objects that are supposed to be forbidden in storage drums. BIR has been able to integrate the results of a neutron-sensing system developed by Lockheed-Martin's Pinellas, Fla., facility, and superimpose the spatial distribution of neutron intensities onto the three-dimensional x-ray density information. Bernardi said the mobile device has performed outstandingly at a number of DOE sites. The device is back at BIR's facility. BIR hopes to increase the number of detectors on the unit to scan drums from five to 30 times faster. BIR hopes to build two additional trailers so as to be able to offer scanning and other analytic services to DOE and to nuclear power utilities that are a significant source of radioactive waste.

Dr. John F. Moore, president of BIR, pointed out that the technology developed for NASA has led to other products. BIR has adapted the detectors to keep their efficiency with x-ray energies as high as nine million volts, and have installed a six-meter-high linear detector array to inspect tractor-trailers for contraband at the border crossings near Shenzhen in the People's Republic of China. Systems now in use by the U.S. Customs Service operate at 450,000 volts and - while able to see false compartments in the outer walls of vehicles - they cannot look through heavily loaded cargo as well as the system in use by the Chinese, he said. For more information on BIR, contact Smith at 425 Barclay Blvd., Lincolnshire, IL 60069-3624 or phone (847) 634-6425.
 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 04:42:49 PM by Rude »