Author Topic: The Risk of Doing Nothing  (Read 2172 times)

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2003, 09:39:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
How many of you have ever stood in the middle of a desert?

If so, can you tell me it would be easy to find anything buried in that same desert?

It's not that easy.

Who here believes in no possibility of the WMD's being removed from the country while we square danced in the UN?


Hell, just drive from Phoenix to Los Angeles and look across those 350 miles of desert and tell me you couldn't hide something out there that might never be found.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2003, 10:02:48 AM »
Grunherz. The usual tripe about US haters. The usual "I'll argue with everyone and tell them what they think because it's easier that way". You were doing so well too.

Toad - my money if going towards more worthy things right now. I'm not saying your BBS bet over some petty argument isn't worthy... :D

The truth is I'm not sure either way. There is evidence for and against. The most telling evidence is the preventative measures the Iraqis were equipped with. But that is circumstancial and there was supposed to be weaponized WMD available for deployment within 45 minutes. Hype? Probably. There was alot of that before the war.

What most disquietens me about the conflict was the switching of motivation before and during the war. It started to be about WMD, then it became humanitarian. It seemed to me that the whole thing was built on shaky foundations supported by flavour-of-the-moment popularist reasoning.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2003, 10:08:29 AM »
Dowding, it's simply how an individual chooses to interpret the situation.

The war was initiated on a WMD basis.

Now, a bit more than 2 weeks after the announced end of combat, some folks want instant service on the WMD proof. McDonald's syndrome. It's going to take some time, I think. Further, if 5,000 liters of anthrax WERE found, these same folks would say "so what.. that's not REAL WMD... that's just a little bit". They'll excuse anything.

I still personally require WMD proof for me to back Bush in this war. The difference is that I'm a bit more patient and realistic.

If there are no WMD shown, at some point one must conclude he lied or misled us about that. If that is the case, I will hold him responsible and accountable.

You see, a lie by a President is a lie. About a BJ or about WMD, a lie is a lie. And my reaction will be the same.

Unlike a host of others that can excuse lying by their favorite, I can't tolerate it on either side.

Hope that clears things up.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2003, 10:26:36 AM »
I am very sarcastic abouut all this crap dowding, but hell just look how you "we need more time for inspections 8 years was not enough" guys are now demanding that the USA find it all immediately or else... How exactly am I supposed to view that bizzare reversal of attititudes?

Offline crabofix

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2003, 11:45:39 AM »
.

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2003, 12:02:09 PM »
Mass graves with 10,000+ victims found last week...I guess humanitarian purposes doesn't fit in well with the Left trying to make GWB look foolish though. ;)

Offline Scootter

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2003, 01:02:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
u.s. had gas ( mustard ect) in ww2 and was ready to use it.

and we still have it. funny that.


Just to clear up the above.

We have very very old (from as early as 1918) stocks of unstable mustard gas in artillery shells that for the most part can not be moved. We are slowly destroying them but it is a very unsafe and tedious process. The weapons used to fire the shells are long gone and were mostly obsolete in WW2 (IE the French 75mm). The bombs were actually designed for biplanes in WW1 and the shackles would not work in WW2 with out modifications. These "weapons" are really not weapons but are toxic wastes, and are coasting a ton to get rid of. Please don't say we have mustard gas weapons, as we don't (they are and have been useless as a weapon for over 60 years) I have heard that we have N.B.C. many times lately and I just wanted to clear this up. There is a big difference in having old unstable stocks of junk and having weapons. The newer stuff was easier to destroy after WW2 and has been. We maintained a deterrence in chem. weapons to prevent the enemy from using the same but for the most part it was more of a bluff then anything (we had no real chem. suits or gas masks to give our troops) we could not fight if we used it so really it was never planed to be a weapon we could use.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2003, 01:07:38 PM by Scootter »

Offline Scootter

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2003, 02:05:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
If he did have it, I guess he could have been saving it for the next war.


yeah... that's it...



Sandman,
   To use N.B.C. weapons you need several things.

1. A stationary enemy, nice to have a stagnant front like WW1 but you need the other guy to hold still for a bit. We moved way to fast to use them on us.

2. Weather needs to cooperate, no wind and surely not one blowing toward you. The weather in the early days of the war would have rendered the weapons useless.

3. The enemy needs to be unequipped to handle the threat. if he is trained and equipped you will only piss him off and he may use with justification his WMD i.e. tactual nuclear as we have said we will respond to WMD in kind and that’s the only kind we have. They knew of our MOP capabilities. I am also sure they were advised not to use them by a large number of the advisers they employed.

4. The delivery system to get the weapon on target when the stationary target is located. Iraq had only artillery to do this so the warheads had to be brought to within 20 or so miles of us to do that. We were not there long enough to even think about the getting the weapons to the tubes even if they could communicate this information. We destroyed their ability to communicate at most every level, but most certainly at the field level. They could not really use long range rockets as to the problem with targeting and the threat to the interception of said rockets.

5. The will to use the weapons at the field level. I believe the prewar propaganda program may have been at work here as well, there is evidence of oil rigs that were set with explosives but they had been sabotaged so they would not go off. I think many higher ranking officers knew the gig was up and really didn’t want to take the risk for no real payoff militarily.
 


Many of these items are I believe also true as to why Germany did not use any Chemical weapons in WW2.

Biological weapons are not a weapon to use in a wartime environment, as they are to variable in there use and effectiveness and they are slow in their mortality.

To say that "if they had them they would have used them" is really an over simplification, we had weapons that we did not use for a verity of reasons.

The facts about the possession of Chemical and Biological weapons are not disputed by anyone, they had them in the past and used them, this is a fact. To think that Saddam just decided to get rid of them out of the goodness of his hart is laughable. The inability of them to show where and how the were destroyed is what speaks to the deception of the regime. If I lived next to you and you wanted me to show you I had disarmed like I said I did would not be hard, if I really did and I wanted to prove it. If you told me something and it was true and you wanted (or needed) to back it up I thing you would go balls out to show my the truth. Look at South Africa as an example. They did and wanted to prove it and did.

It is really Simple,

Regards and thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2003, 02:08:48 PM by Scootter »

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
The Risk of Doing Nothing
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2003, 02:07:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Mass graves with 10,000+ victims found last week...I guess humanitarian purposes doesn't fit in well with the Left trying to make GWB look foolish though. ;)


Really? I don't remember this being one of the key reasons that made Iraq such a threat to the U.S.

Now... if this is the reason we're going to be sending U.S. troops to war in the future, get out your checkbooks, tighten your belts and get ready for the long haul. Cleaning up the planet is going to be expensive.

And when it's all over, don't be surprised if the people you liberate still resent you.
sand