Author Topic: WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz  (Read 5091 times)

Offline crabofix

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2003, 04:13:55 PM »
Oops, Wrong door, sorry.

Smells like sh*t in here, has GRUN been postin?

Offline Charon

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2003, 04:14:39 PM »
Syzy, I would agree that the administration naturally assumed there would be WMD in Iraq. I'm personally surprised they haven't been found.

I would disagree with Dead that heavy casualties would be overly detrimental, in that Hussein's use of WMD would ultimately justify the invasion and any losses endured. This is particularly true given the percentage of the American population that would actually, personally lose a loved one. Also, there has been a focus on NBC training in the military for 50 years now. It is likely that an Iraqi use of chemical weapons would not be looked upon as a major impediment, and (as it played out) it wasn’t anticipated that there would be bloody streets in Baghdad.

IMO, the neocons felt that their philosophy would straighten out the Middle East through a carrot and stick approach from Iran to the West Bank. The end would ultimately justify the means, even if the American public was not quite ready to share in their grand (but highly complicated and theoretical) vision. Once a few WMD were found you would only see increased support for a successful “kick bellybutton and take names” administration. Perhaps they just didn’t do enough due diligence when they developed the second selling point - WMD - and are running a bit scared now because they are not finding any and the fact that Iraq is starting to look like the post war mess a lot of people thought it might but that the neocons generally dismissed.

The key in public relations is to not lie outright, but to shift the facts to support your position. And yes, both Democrats and Republicans do this as a part of daily life. I see it much like the adversarial relationship at a trial (hopefully without looking too ignorant to an expert), only with even more gray area where the truth is concerned. You can’t cross the line, but you can go right up to it and even shift it a bit. The goal is to win, and it helps that the other side usually has a self-serving reason for opposing your policy (that won’t play well with the public either) plus the need to operate in the Washington political environment after any single issue is resolved. The Washington media will generally play along until you FU, then there’s blood in the water.

Developing the message is a case of identifying the key issues (a laundry list), running focus groups and polls, determining which ones generate the most traction (typically ones that are simple and emotional) and concentrating on those messages exclusively. That’s why you saw such distinct shifts in the message. When Al Queada fell flat, they had to move on almost exclusively to WMD and so forth (or you start confusing people too much). The spokespersons (from Ari to Bush to Rumsfeld to Powell) then stick on message and repetitively reinforce the message every time they are in a quotable situation.

Is it possible that the current administration really believed that Saddam had WMD. Yes, in fact probable. Is it possible that these weapons would find their way into the hands of Muslim fundamentalist terrorists for an attack on the US? Sure, but that is speculation. It is that gray are where you can mislead and generate opinion without actually lying about it. You could argue that it is unlikely, particularly compared to several other countries in the region with far stronger ties to Muslim fundamentalism. But, again, it is in the realm of possibility. Is it likely that the whole WMD thing was a selling point with some potential validity, but that it was by no means the reason we actually went to war -- IMO, yes. Where this is getting dicey for the administration is that an assumption that was the cornerstone for a second tier (or more likely third of fourth tier) issue might have been false. If this is the case then they will have, even if uninetentionally, crossed the line. To me, it stinks regardless but unfortunately that is how the game is played.

Sorry if it reads like a lecture, but it always amazes me how many people (not referring to any particular individuals on the bbs BTW - in general) just don’t understand how this all works. I think "How marketing works" should be taught in Jr. High School about the time kids learn the Constitution, since marketing (from the Saturday morning cartoons to the next election) is as big a facet of life in America as democracy.

BTW, it is interesting to see Ari stepping down all of a sudden. While not too unusual, the timing is interesting. The last thing a PR person want’s to happen, career wise is to lose credibility, to intentionally, or even by being mislead, cross that line. You could speculate that past or potential future events have made him uncomfortable speaking for the administration. Or he could just want to move on for personal reasons.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 04:32:38 PM by Charon »

Offline weazel

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<snip>
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2003, 04:28:18 PM »
Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil

George Wright
Wednesday June 4, 2003

Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war.
The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil.

The latest comments were made by Mr Wolfowitz in an address to delegates at an Asian security summit in Singapore at the weekend, and reported today by German newspapers Der Tagesspiegel and Die Welt.

Asked why a nuclear power such as North Korea was being treated differently from Iraq, where hardly any weapons of mass destruction had been found, the deputy defence minister said: "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil."



Mr Wolfowitz is beginning to look like the Bush juntas worst enemy.

Offline Syzygyone

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Well,,,,
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2003, 04:31:48 PM »
Again you make many good points and your explanation is certainly more palatable than most I've heard that characterize the WMD issue as bogus justification.

But, that sort of makes my point too.  It's not logical for WMD to have been intentionally lied about without there having been a failsafe method of "proving" the lie.  The politicos in any administration would have seen that necessity.  Thus, I'm left with the result that the administration leadership genuinely believed the intel they had that there was WMD.  Thus, I come to the conclusion that what needs to be scrubbed clean is the IC.  The Pentagon intel officer today vehemently denied that the IC was "directed" to find what the admin wanted found.  Most people in the IC that I know think that concept is laughable.  You just can't support fabrication.  Too many people looking to see if you are right in your assessment.  

And the basis for the WMD assertions was a NIE, from all the IC players.  So, did this administration pick and choose from the NIE only that which would support its position that a preemptive invasion was necessary.  That seems to be the thrust of your last post and I don't find that implausible.  But, what I do find implausible is that they wouldn't have covered their bases better if they'd known they were "stretching" the truth.

As cynical as I am, I still don't ascribe the venal motivations to this, or any administration, as do most opponents of whatever administration is in power at the time.  99% of the time, it's just people trying to do some really tough jobs with eqipment and information provided via the lowest bidder system.

But, I wax philosophic.  To get back on point, even if things are as you say they are, and the truth was "stretched" to fit the perceived need for support, I still suggest that those doing the"stretching" are smart folk, from many walks of life who would certainly have seen a need to have proof.  That they didn't supply the "proof" speaks volumes, I think.



:D

Offline Syzygyone

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Re: <snip>
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2003, 04:35:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weazel
Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil

George Wright
Wednesday June 4, 2003



The quote was twisted and taken out of context big time.  Don't let a rag like the Guardian do your thinking for you.  Look up the transcript of his remarks for yourself.

Offline Charon

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2003, 04:47:13 PM »
Quote
But, I wax philosophic. To get back on point, even if things are as you say they are, and the truth was "stretched" to fit the perceived need for support, I still suggest that those doing the"stretching" are smart folk, from many walks of life who would certainly have seen a need to have proof. That they didn't supply the "proof" speaks volumes, I think.


One would hope. But smart folk screw up from time to time. Enron and WorldCom were led by smart folk. Martha Stewart was smart driven and successful, but she blew it all for $200,000. I think a lot would depend on the internal culture at the White House, the influence of the neocons and the checks and balances within the cabinet. And, again, there may very well be WMD. It's just that they may not have been the reason the war was undertaken given the long standing and documented positions of the senior advisors to the president as outlined in the Project for the New American Century. That's not to say they though they were acting in the worst interests of the American people, just that to achieve the best interests for America and a major partner in the region, they had to pick messages that would sell. Maybe GWB trusted his advisors too much? Only time will tell at this point.

Charon

Offline Syzygyone

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #186 on: June 04, 2003, 04:57:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
One would hope. But smart folk screw up from time to time. Enron and WorldCom were led by smart folk. Martha Stewart was smart driven and successful, but she blew it all for $200,000. I think a lot would depend on the internal culture at the White House, the influence of the neocons and the checks and balances within the cabinet. And, again, there may very well be WMD. It's just that they may not have been the reason the war was undertaken given the long standing and documented positions of the senior advisors to the president as outlined in the Project for the New American Century. That's not to say they though they were acting in the worst interests of the American people, just that to achieve the best interests for America and a major partner in the region, they had to pick messages that would sell. Maybe GWB trusted his advisors too much? Only time will tell at this point.

Charon


Spekaing of smart people, the PNAC and doing dumb things:

Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil

George Wright
Wednesday June 4, 2003

Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war.
The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil.

The latest comments were made by Mr Wolfowitz in an address to delegates at an Asian security summit in Singapore at the weekend, and reported today by German newspapers Der Tagesspiegel and Die Welt.

Asked why a nuclear power such as North Korea was being treated differently from Iraq, where hardly any weapons of mass destruction had been found, the deputy defence minister said: "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil."

I don't for a second suggest that we take at face value a "quote" taken by a German papers and then requoted a UK paper, but, me thinks that Mr. Wolfowitz needs to take a course in public speaking.  If as has been suggested, that his meaning is taken out of context and twisted to it's most nefarious possible interpretation, he needs to choose his words much more carefully.  His comments iin Vanity Fair and now this are, in large part, the impetus behind these bogus WMD justification diatribes.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #187 on: June 04, 2003, 05:47:05 PM »
Ahh yes and we get back to the idiotic "No war for oil" argument...

If we just wanted access to Iraqi oil all we had to do was drop the sanctions and sammam would seel it to us and even if he didnt want to sell it to us directly there is no way he could stop us from getting access to it on the open market and of ciurse no way he could stop us from enjoyoing the lower worldwide oil prices caused by an increase in supply of oil.  Of course the counter to this is that we are now "stealing" the oil and that is why we invaded...  Laughable garbage!

Offline Charon

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #188 on: June 04, 2003, 05:50:04 PM »
LOL. It's mind boggling Syzyg. Hard to explain except perhaps he's a bit too full of himself right now. As you point out you don't even let yourself get close to that kind of misquote.

As an aside, I left PR when I got so politically correct and self editing that I would, without thinking, refer to the girl I was dating as "the person I'm dating" :) And, use "can," "might," "may." "potentially," etc. even when the subject was clear and straightforward. I really started to miss declarative sentences.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 05:55:41 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #189 on: June 04, 2003, 06:00:56 PM »
Actully Grun, what you describe (dropping the sanctions) was a political impossibility for both Republicans and Democrats given the history of our relations with Iraq since 1991.

As far as oil is concerned, the real money is in exploration, development and production, which requires a partnership with the country's national oil company or an open, deregulated market. Neither were viable under Saddam Hussein. Whether it was about oil or not, you argument doesn't impact the issue.

Charon

Offline bounder

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #190 on: June 04, 2003, 08:47:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
yes, and the mobile weapons labs they found hidden the desert were really baby food factories.

Oh you mean those canvas sided mobile biochem labs....
mmmmhmmm

Offline bounder

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #191 on: June 04, 2003, 09:05:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ahh yes and we get back to the idiotic "No war for oil" argument...
 

Not the argument as that implies it was to do with possession. It's not about possession, it's about control. I don't think it's anything to be embarassed about. Oil is very important to all our lives, and lack of any input into how the (possibly very large) oil reserves in iraq are exploited, would be a very serious thing indeed.

I merely wish that this had been clearly announced at the start of proceedings, instead of trying to use the UN, an organisation committed to the aim of ending conflict, to endorse a war fought for economic security.

By doing so, the public at large would have been more reliably informed of the thinking behind the conflict, and might then be in a better position to make informed choices about their position on the matter.

A war about oil would be more accurate. Or even a war to liberate oil.

Look, if Iraq's main export was dates, then this would never have happened.

Screw the WMD capability, laughably small as it was in comparison to others, that was simply a tangible threat that could be talked up into precisely the right vehicle for winning support from other nations. or not, as was the case.

 The alternative, of saying "it's about oil and our long term economic security, which we believe will be enhanced by free market access to the iraqi oil reserves" was rightly deemed to be a less palatable message, and more likely to provoke protest at all levels of society.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #192 on: June 04, 2003, 11:27:55 PM »
You mean this war that was apparently opposed by millions worldwide and by amny in the UN was politically easier than dropping sanctions which so many people have been calling for in the past decade?

I dont think so. The warv was the right thing thing to do in light of saddams intransigence and it was also the difficult thing to do in light of various UNSC member states' duplicity...

As for control vs ownership of oil. First of all the iraqi people will own their oil and they will keep oil proceeds to rebuild Iraq.  In fact it was the French and russians who oposed this war because their oil comapnies wer granted outrageusly fvaorable oil contracts by the saddam Government, terms so fvaorable that no free government could ever match them. So there lies your entire control and ownership arguemt. We did not go into Iraq to control, steal, or own their oil - we went in for reeasons generaly relevant to US national security and our views on the requirement of removing a threatening Saddam in intersets of regional stablity.

The no war for oil argument is weak in general but a reliable cop out for ignorant Bush haters due to his proffesional background. Lets not forget that many of the same culprits even called the post 911 assault on the Taliban and AlQaeda a war for oil - based on some specious argument about caspian sea oil pipes and what not. Some even went so far to suggest Bush was lying that AlQeada was responsible just so he could go in and attack afghanistan and yes somehow mysteriously steal some oil.

So if people were calling the Afgahnistan war a war for oil, and the cause of the war a lie, I'm not surprised many of the same folks would think the same about Iraq.

People in the international community dont seem to like Republican Presidents, they hated reagan even as he was bankrupting the Soviet Union and challenging Gorbacov for reforms. They seem to have a  special hate for Bush beacous IMHO he is not as slick and smooth like they got used to with clinton - clinton sure is a better spaeaker and comes accros as much more sophistiacted and nuanced- Europeans in particular seemed to like that in him. But Bush is different, he is plain spoken and principaled, he has his views and IMHO his advisors are a reminder to Europe of their cold war depenadance on the USA and of course that rubs them the wrong way.  So again its easy for europe to be hostile to Bush and subscribe to the wildest theories about him.

Also too many of you make too big a distnicion between opposition to the iraq war and oposition to the afghan war. If you look at them closely you will see the protest and activism organizers against both wars are the same people. In fact I recently read that in interntional "peace" circles the planning for anti-War anti-USA protests began only days after 911 itself in anticipation of ANY american response whatsover. This predetrrimed response clearly implies that a base anti-Americanism is at the heart of these reactions.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 11:30:21 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline -tronski-

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #193 on: June 04, 2003, 11:58:23 PM »
Quote
So if people were calling the Afgahnistan war a war for oil, and the cause of the war a lie, I'm not surprised many of the same folks would think the same about Iraq.



Ahhh but theres no oil in afghanistan quite like there is in Iraq...and the argument there was so crystal clear...
Anyone would even try to link the arguments for and against the two conflicts is a fool.

Quote
People in the international community dont seem to like Republican Presidents,


Bush #1 did ok when it came to Gulf War #1, Bush #2 did ok when it came to Afghanistan

Quote
Also too many of you make too big a distnicion between opposition to the iraq war and oposition to the afghan war. If you look at them closely you will see the protest and activism organizers against both wars are the same people. In fact I recently read that in interntional "peace" circles the planning for anti-War anti-USA protests began only days after 911 itself in anticipation of ANY american response whatsover. This predetrrimed response clearly implies that a base anti-Americanism is at the heart of these reactions.


The anti-war movement for Afghanistan (if there was any), was light years in difference to the anti war movement for Iraq

 Tronsky
« Last Edit: June 05, 2003, 12:19:54 AM by -tronski- »
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #194 on: June 05, 2003, 12:19:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
Ahhh but theres no oil in afghanistan like in Iraq...and the argument there was so crystal clear...



Bush #1 did ok when it came to Gulf War #1



The anti-war movement for Afghanistan (if there was any), was light years in difference to the anti war movement for Iraq

 Tronsky



No No not in Afhagnistn - but we attacked afghanistan so halliburton could build caspian sea oil piplines, that was the argument. So even with the claear post 911 argument the were many people suggesting AlQaaeda was not the real reason we attacked afganistan.

And you bet there was a significant anti-war movement wrt Afganistan - it's interseting how quickly people forget that.  And the SAME workers/socialist/communist/anti-globalization/anti-USA groups who organized and funded the Afghan war protests did the same for Iraq.

As for the presidents thing thats an overall average, they seem to like democratic presidents more than republicans.