Author Topic: WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz  (Read 5192 times)

Offline -tronski-

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #195 on: June 05, 2003, 12:24:56 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No No not in Afhagnistn - but we attacked afghanistan so halliburton could build caspian sea oil piplines, that was the argument. So even with the claear post 911 argument the were many people suggesting AlQaaeda was not the real reason we attacked afganistan.

And you bet there was a significant anti-war movement wrt Afganistan - it's interseting how quickly people forget that.  And the SAME workers/socialist/communist/anti-globalization/anti-USA groups who organized and funded the Afghan war protests did the same for Iraq.

As for the presidents thing thats an overall average, they seem to like democratic presidents more than republicans.


I would dispute the anti-war movement for Afghanistan was anything more than just token, especially when measured against the tone, numbers, and makeup of the Iraqi anti-war movement.

The international support of the Afghanistan conflict would seem to make any other motives laughable.

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline crowMAW

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #196 on: June 05, 2003, 12:28:04 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
People in the international community dont seem to like Republican Presidents

I agree with Tronsky...this statement is a bit broad.  I think Bush, Sr. was respected by the international community.  Nixon also as he started the arms reduction negotiations with the USSR and he penetrated the bamboo curtain by going to China.  Going back one more, I would wager that Eisenhower was very well liked by the European community.

The international community seems to care more about actions than any US party affiliations.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #197 on: June 05, 2003, 12:32:40 AM »
But there were many people seriously suggesting it - as laughable as it is. And those are the same people who were oraginizing the iraq war protests.

Sure the afghan war protests weresmaller but they had far far less time to organize and then the iraq war protests were built on theat infrastructure - you see they started planning and protesting literally right after 911 even before the USA attacked which was less than a month after 911. Still there were 100s of thousands protesting worldwide. So its easy to see how they transfered that mass propaganda machine infrastructure to build even larger protests a full year later for iraq.  Follow the money, its all the same people funding these mass coordinated ralleys. And that takes a lot of centralized planning and coordination, they arent just good decent people out expressing their views - its an organized propaganda campaign.

Thankfully it was all a dismal failiure and the people of Iraq are now free from the tyrrany of saddam and the mideast pecae process is moving forward as everyone in the region now has aclearer idea that the USA is dead serious about the issues.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2003, 12:36:00 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline -dead-

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #198 on: June 05, 2003, 01:24:33 AM »
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Originally posted by Charon
I would disagree with Dead that heavy casualties would be overly detrimental, in that Hussein's use of WMD would ultimately justify the invasion and any losses endured. This is particularly true given the percentage of the American population that would actually, personally lose a loved one. Also, there has been a focus on NBC training in the military for 50 years now. It is likely that an Iraqi use of chemical weapons would not be looked upon as a major impediment, and (as it played out) it wasnt anticipated that there would be bloody streets in Baghdad.
Sure, a "now you've done it, let's get 'em boys" bounce back is a distinct possibility - but would you be prepared to bet your dream job on it? Public opinion would certainly be behind the troops, especially, as you rightly point out, in a comparatively militaristic society. There'd be flags, yellow ribbons, benefit concerts and telethons all over the place. But the question that would concern the president is: would public opinion be behind the guy that got them into the mess? Would they vote for the guy that got one of their relatives gassed/infected/irradiated? Would the Republican party take the risk? Had Hussein attacked first, no problem. However this invasion had no "Pearl Harbour" as provocation, it didn't even have a dodgy "Tonkin Gulf". The public might well back him, but it might just be to the end of his term and no further. I still reckon it's not the sort of odds that you'd want to stake your dream job on.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #199 on: June 05, 2003, 01:47:55 AM »
Dead it was the right thing to do in this case saddam had plenty of chances and plenty of time to show us that he was disarmed and he did not. Combine that legal reason for the attack with the reality that he was openly financing suicide bombers in Isral and thus adding incentive to extending the crisis and so raising regional instability it makes a good case for the USA to attack out of our own and our allies national intersets. Moreover the French position to outright veto ANY UNSC use of force proclamaion in support of 1441 noncompliance measures made it impossible to go the UN route. This was nothiong unusual as the USA and allies have acted independently of the UN before, most notably in Kosovo to IMHO great success and stopped another developing miliosevic genocide before. In other words we looked into his past behavior saw current developents and decided not to wait for another Bosnian genocide scale outrage to provide evidence that nobody could challenge. Remember the russians were very very oppoosed to the Kosovo attack - the serbs and russians are very close historically.

And IMHO the USA undertook a similar analysis of the Iraq situation, we were unwilling to risk saddam betraying us again and starting more trouble. On the appeals of Colin Powell the govt dcided to try the UN route and got the stronly worded unanimous 1441 resolution demanding iraq come clean or else military force would be used.  They did not, they violated 1441 disclore provisions and again showed they could not be trusted. In the mean time france started her games about not allowing ANY use of force. This appeasemt weakness only emboldenned Saddam and he resite further and thus we had the war.

Saddam is gone, the iraqis are free, the checks to suicide bombers arte stopped, the wmd program is over, the UN bs is over and as usaual America is leading the charge in doing the rigth things and the difficult things as europeran intellectual elites do the chatting andpointless nuanced moralising about the virtues of saddam.

Offline Yeager

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #200 on: June 05, 2003, 11:56:59 AM »
The Boeing airliners flying into the WTC changed it all for me.

Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria and then Saudi Arabia if it were up to me.  If Europe, China and Russia want to take sides against us then let it all hang out in the open so we can get down to the bottom deal and either end the show for everyone or get the problem fixed once and for all.  Dont like it?  Too Golly-geened bad.  Afraid?  You had better be.

:)
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Syzygyone

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er, uh welll...
« Reply #201 on: June 05, 2003, 11:58:13 AM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
I got this e-mail from Janes Security News Briefs:

Next US target: Tehran
.........

This doesn't look good (although I'm sure it does for some of you).

I wonder what excuse will be used this time.


It could be to keep Russia from getting a warm water port.

Yeah, It could be that!



:D

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #202 on: June 05, 2003, 12:59:26 PM »
I dont think we will attack Iran and I dont think we should, its not Iraq and should be handled differently.

Offline Torque

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WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
« Reply #203 on: June 05, 2003, 05:00:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I got this e-mail from Janes Security News Briefs:

>>>>
Next US target: Tehran
Tension is rising between the USA and Iran. The stalemate that existed since President Bush branded the Islamic Republic part of the 'axis of evil' is moving slowly, but surely towards a major crisis and influential hawks in Washington are intensifying their call for regime change in Iran. JID's regional correspondent examines the prospects for another conflict in the Gulf.
<<<<

This doesn't look good (although I'm sure it does for some of you).

I wonder what excuse will be used this time.


Second time around is always a charm, maybe they learned from '53.

Reminds me of a story about a  town that was infested by mice. The town's people bring in cats to chase the mice away and then dogs to chase the cats aways and so on, unitl they come to elephants.

Finally, they have to bring the mice back to scare off the elephants.

And the wheel goes round and round and round....