Remodeling the flight model

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

This is the main force causing the left yaw on your takeoff roll.

Are you saying that this is the main cause in AH or on "Real" airplanes? I hope you are refering to AH modeling!

In a tailwheel airplane applying full power from a stand still (for example), with nose high attitude, (edited)"P" Factor is the #1 effect, not slip stream. Once the aircraft gets rolling then its basicly a combo of torque, slipstream and P Factor. As the tail comes up, then Gyroscopic Precession plays a roll among the total of four effects. (i.e.; High Angles of attack as in the "Take-Off" roll or stall attitude.

1. Reactive Force
2. Spiraling Slipstream
3. Gyroscopic Precession
4. "P" Factor

Remove the vertical stab and rudder, and the nose will still yaw left, from stand still to a foward "take-off" motion. Thats P Factor, not slip stream.

How these four factors are actually created varies greatly from one explination to the next.

[Pyro]

I'm referring to both real planes and AH.  The yaw is often attributed to torque, but that is not what torque does.  

Here's a couple of links I found on google to explain it.

http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/propeffects.html

http://www.av8n.com/how/#contents

[MajorDay]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
OMG!!

I wish I knew what I said, I would say it again.

I luv when Pyro talks about realism, I get all salamanderly

Thumb up, buddy!  

[GScholz]

Btw. if you're remodeling all the planes will the 110G2 get its historical self-sealing fueltanks? The inboard tanks seem to catch fire every time they're hit.

[Pyro]

re: the effect of torque

The effect of torque is an old discussion that probably arose from the semantics of the word "torque" being used to generically refer to multiple forces(which is why I referenced the first link earlier).  So this discussion has come up fairly regularly over the years but I just came up with a simple and obvious example -  the helicopter.  Ask yourself two questions.  1-  What is the purpose of the tail rotor?  2-  Why is the tail rotor aligned perpendicularly to the main rotor rather than in parallel?

[Pyro]

re: the effect of torque

The effect of torque is an old discussion that probably arose from the semantics of the word "torque" being used to generically refer to multiple forces(which is why I referenced the first link earlier).  So this discussion has come up fairly regularly over the years but I just came up with a simple and obvious example -  the helicopter.  Ask yourself two questions.  1-  What is the purpose of the tail rotor?  2-  Why is the tail rotor aligned perpendicularly to the main rotor rather than in parallel?

[2Hawks]

Originally posted by Pyro
re: the effect of torque
 1-  What is the purpose of the tail rotor?  2-  Why is the tail rotor aligned perpendicularly to the main rotor rather than in parallel?

Uhm, Pyro... May I introduce to you the CH-46?

[Mini D]

Thanks for the news pyro.

MiniD

[oboe]

ditto.  News was much appreciated!

[Kaz]

Thanks for the update Pyro

Now about that steerable tail wheel, are you thinking of having some planes with fixed tail wheels (if any of them had um) or maybe being able to lock the tail wheel for takeoff (if this was done)?

[Karnak]

Domo arigato Pyro-san.

[Straiga]

Pyro if your saying that a helicopter flies the way an airplane does Im sorry there is no comparison.
Let me see if I understand what your saying, 1 you say that torge is not countered by rudder. On takeoff lets say a P-51 when you apply power the rudder is effective because of prop slip stream,ailerons have no air over them yet. elevator is effective somewhat enough to raise the tail.

On a tail dragger  you have "P"factor right off the bat the from the 12 oclock trough 6 oclock position on a clock wise turning propeller the right side of the prop disk has more angle of attack on the prop then the 6 back to 12 side of the prop. Therefor more lift is created on the right side,and the nose goes left.
Prop slip stream rotates around the fuselage and hits the tail on the left side of the vertical stab pushes the tail to the right and nose to the left rudder is then right rudder is applied to counter force .
Ailerons still have no effect at this time no relative wind yet .The right wing is mounted to the fuselage at a higher angel on incidence then the left wing this counters torge , p factor and prop slip stream, not gyro procession which effects the airplane force to the right. Ailerons are not effective till about 35kts. Ailerons are used on takeoff for crosswind conditions max deflection is used at first until effective to counter crosswind.
After you get airborne pfactor is still present until level flight egual lift on prop disk when you climb pfactor plays a role again.
Torgue disapates in un accelrated flight but is still present.

Call any flight instructor at your local airport they will say the samething. Or get a book its all there.

I have been a pilot for over 30yrs, 91/2 with the US Navy jet fighter pilot, the rest as an Airline Pilot with a major carrier flying DC10s and B767s. Im both airplane and helicopter flight instructor with ATP in both. I have a master in aeronautical engineering,with over 500 hrs in a P-51D

Next lesson coming soon
Straiga

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

Oh no, not helicopter talk...hehehehehe

Guess I should have better explained myself. "Torque" is the combo of the four forces so to speek, not just "slipstream". I ment to sya "P Factor" and it has been edited.

I have a pretty good book, its called "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviatiors"...I used it in coledg...colag...calleg...col ledg....Advanced School  Yes this redneck does have an eegucatiomon !!!!!

[Tumor]

Originally posted by F4UDOA


I luv when Pyro talks about realism, I get all salamanderly

Hey put that thing away... you might put someones eye out!

Appreciate the news Pyro!  I've been hearing the words "Vaporware" on occasion lol.  Now I got some ammo.

[bozon]

Straiga,
what you say is good and true but pyro is still right.

All the forces you described are there but they create torque around a different axis.
The prop's torque is a twist force in the roll axis. All the other secondary forces you described create a twist around the yaw axis.

I'm sure you know your physics, but as Pyro said, torque is commonly used to described multiple forces. He was talking about the primary (the direct) effect on the roll and secondary effects on the same axis.

btw, in P factor you mean the force difference of the blades created by a prop disc not moving perpendicular to the air flow?

Bozon