Author Topic: How To Conquer the Flight Sim Market  (Read 2041 times)

ISHMAEL

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« Reply #30 on: September 18, 1999, 01:13:00 AM »
I have no combat experience, but do have many RL hours of very demanding/often tense/incident-filled flying, and some of these WarBirds scenario sequences are as intense and adrenelin-creating as any in-flight emergency I have ever experienced - they are very "real".
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Before we developed the OAE concept in the "Historical War," most of us had participated in large scale inter-squad wars with objectives and missions, sometimes even simulating historical events. Yes, the excitment can run high in these large-scale organized games - but the effect that the OAE has on combat compared to even these events is beyond comparison.

I don't want to overstate my case, but things look completely different when you, PERSONALLY, have a pilot CAREER. When you know your pilot's name and remember his many narrow escapes and those fortunate kills, it ceases to be a game - it becomes a DRAMA!

This difference is never more clear than when you make a kill in an OAE environment. You can't HELP but feel twinges of sadness for the other guy when you watch his aircraft plummeting toward the earth. Everyone in an OAE environemnt has a personal stake in the outcome and you know that that other player was fighting for his pilot's life! It's actually kind of creepy knowing you are the one who just ruined his day.

It has certanly been a great lesson in the true nature of warfare.




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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 1999, 01:15:00 AM »
Your idea has merit, but I would like to point out a few problems with it.

1-  The subject sample that you used in this test are people who also have an interest in seeing this kind of thing.  It is not necessarily representative of the larger group of people.  

2-  The test takes place at a pre-arranged time where everybody meets.  That's very different than trying to run a 24-7 arena.  This makes it more like a special event which is much more feasible.

3-  The difference between the online flight sims and the RPGs is huge.  The RPGs aren't based on players killing each other.  Staying alive in an RPG is a lot easier and characters come back from death.  Some players may spend years mastering their ACM and have a lot to show for it.  It doesn't take years of experience to learn how to handle an RPG's interface or the tactics involved.  What it boils down to is that your success in the RPG is not dependent on another person's failure.  

After a player has played online flight-sims for awhile, they reach a point where they've basically mastered the skills and have become bored.  They wonder why the game has lost so much of the excitement that it once had.  They search for new ways to reacquire that same level of excitement that they felt when they first started.  That's natural and a good thing.  But what often happens is that players start wanting to dictate how the game should be played by everyone else to satify their personal preferences.  They also forget that the skills it may have taken them years to learn came from grinding it out in a lot of furballs.  Somebody new coming into the game hasn't been through that.

I believe the main arena should be a place where you can have fun and practice your skills.  I also believe that there is a place for more serious flying but it's not in the main arena.  

Personally, I've always thought the ultimate in white-knuckled flying would be a one-life scenario.  Not one life per frame, but just one life and then you're through.

A lot of what we end up doing has to be based on how many people we have.  It is detrimental to open up an arena that will only become a ghost-town.  Give it some time to grow, we've got a long road ahead.



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chester

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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 1999, 07:32:00 AM »
since you guys at AH do read this board: please dont snap at me   why not write a strong Death penilty??it seems most players will fly in a MA type arena more beacuse of a relaxed flight model than other reasons.the players have NO REASON to try to fly in a more life like manner.i understand all your work MUST result in a positive bottom line.your task isnt a easy one but the rewards of streching ones comfort zone can be handsome.   .....now to go WAY off the subject!.....what is the thinking on attracting corprate sponsership of game servers?? seems to me the cash infusion of say a COKA-COLA could make for a real game

Herc

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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 1999, 09:29:00 AM »
I personally loved the scenerio lites that Warbirds used to have (maybe they still do).  It didn't take much planning for the participants and had the effect Ish is looking for except the character development.  Are these planned for AH in the future?

I'm totally against on-line character role-playing.  You can get respect by your actions and skill, your rank and time-online should have nothing to do with it.  I had no respect for the high ranking pilots on Flying Circus.  A fair percentage got there through gaming the game as described previously.  It's not fair, because some were excellent players but the ones that did not deserve it ruined the whole concept.  Just look at the high number of aces and above.  The ones that cheated were the ones that talked the biggest also.  It was pretty annoying.  

I knew who the best were when I was  playing WBs.  GunJam comes to mind, what a great shot, I used to get frustrated, and shot down, trying to get at him.  There were others but it's been awhile since I have given up WBs.  

What on-line sims have you played Ish?  Have you played WBs or Air Warrior?  WBs had a very good community with squadrons and the like.

Herc

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 1999, 11:45:00 AM »
Ish,  just a quick question....
With something like 8000 accounts in WB ( Iceman slipped  ) why is it that only 30 show up for Scenario's ?
Why is it that of 10 LW squadrons - you can't get mroe then 20 people to fly in scenario ?
Why is it that of 10 buff squads - you can't find more then 5 volunteer buffers in ETO SL ?

Answer is simple - not everyone shares your point of view. I like the idea personaly but frankly i don't think it will work. Look at HA in WB .... it's dying slow but sure death.

Even the hardcore group doesn't want to be bored to death with 30 minutes or waiting for take off,  taking commands form others,  so on so on... it won't work.

Sorry,.


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-towd_

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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 1999, 01:29:00 PM »
how about the idea i put forthe in another post about fake money and makein it a bounty system (ref. idea for rank/points)

           this is the body of it

"this evening i was thinkin what if you some how could file a flight plane before hand and if you acheived the mission goals you would get a great deal more points, squads could rank up but you would have to do what you went to do. Put the big points on things that are hard/painin the arse. It would help you balance game play by the fact the you could control what kind of missions were flown from a particular base ( have a bounty posted in the officers club, sorta a nod to the flyin tigers and the bounty system they used.

  make the whole thing be in what ever currency the chinese government payed them in instead of the generic points but not dollars cause people wil gripe (people are willing to suspend reality much more with money, he he you all have seen people play monopoly handin those 500s over is a squeak )

well here is the kicker you all wanted a way to score right. (get this this is the neat part)


TAKE IT OUT OF THEIR PAY !!!!!


make um pay for the crashed plnes themselves; I.E. you crash up a plane and live they (your country)make you pay for it.

you country  gives you so many planes per rotation (assuming you have rotations) or a startin cash payment for startin a contract in the AH tigers system and have the planes cost different amounts and give higher pay for kills in harder to fly planes.


to me it seems to give you alot of control on the strat side and the boys alot of fun on the other (can u imagin owein the rooks 400,000 chinese gold palukas for the 28 p 40s you raked up and the stakes would rise as the more expensive planes come out( in the rolling set if you have one ) you kill a 262 and you get the cost of the sweat babe in a reward ( i bet them squeakes were expensive) see the logic ?

well there is one small paart of a strat model"

 dosent change anyhing in the main arena outwardly (and people could not even participate or have the option to use the old point system .)

and think of all the input it would give you one the strat side ( put a big bounty on a base and instant rallying force of good players ( in crappy cheap planes to maximize profits he he thus givin um a handycap)


think if the word goes out the the rooks are losin the war ( down to one base )but the bounty on the knights main field just went to instant retirement account for the guy who knocks it out. and the defenders on the gold team pay double if killed , guys will change sides for the big bucks ( and  stop the unbalence in the  game )

dont get mad at me and dont think i even pretend to know your  job and dont imagine i can "do it better"  i just think it is a cool idea and would give you the govonor  you will on a strat model that is totaly new and untried.


 


ISHMAEL

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« Reply #36 on: September 18, 1999, 01:58:00 PM »
Answer is simple - not everyone shares your point of view. I like the idea personaly but frankly i don't think it will work. Look at HA in WB .... it's dying slow but sure death.
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I never paid to fly in Warbirds or Airwarrior. I tried their services for free and found them to be intensly boring.

These "Historical Arenas" that are constantly brought up as examples of why the OAE won't work have NOTHING to do with the OAE at all. The OAE does not require complex historcally based rules of engagement. It is merely a means of...

1. Encouraging pilots to remain alive rather than take unnecissary risks
2. Simulating the value of experience in air combat without requiring skilled pilots to "fly stupid" when they play the part of "novice recruits"
3. Simulating the importance in warfare of minimizing casualties, especially among highly trained pilots.
4. Most Importantly: Increasing the level of immersion by alowing players to live an alternate, adventurous life (or a series of brief ones).

This system can be used in complex scenarios or it may be used in open combat theatres.

I suspect that the reason "Historical Arenas" did not work is due to poor implementation and lack of development/support. However, I have no experience with the specific Historical Arenas you mention. Nevertheless, I stress that Historical Arenas have nothing to do with OAEs.

The reason I have never payed to play AW or WB is because the "games" there are little more than Quake with wings. Its non-stop, empty, meaningless action that's a total yawn.

I have long been a fan of offline, Single Player campaign games, as (until now) they were the only means by which I could have the thrill of living that "alternate life." The challenge of trying to "survive the war" and the adventure of pilot growth and advancement have never been available online.

I will never pay to be a part of any online sim theatre that fails to model pilots. Such a "sim" negates any hope of feeling a sense of true adventure online.

Are there others like me? Are there others that purchase offline sims but never bother playing online? Yes. There are thousands and thousands. Has anyone ever asked those players why they DON'T play online?

I continue to believe that the MOMMENT the "adventure" element is made part of an online sim world, that sim will become THE place to play online - and will for the first time attract both "hardcore" players and many of the offline players. Because it has never been done before, players don't know what to ask for (Untill you've tasted icecream, you're content with fruitcake for desert).

My original intent with the beta-test was to infuse MMP with the "adventure" aspect available only in offline campaign sims such as: Red Baron, Aces of the Pacific, Aces over Europe, Red Baron II/3D, and European Air War.

All of these games have what is often called a "dynamic campaign" where the player plays the part of a single pilot. His job is to carry out his various missions while attempting to survive. This conflict between game goals and survival (married with alter-ego indentification) forms the basis of the adventure.

Without a conflict between game goals and personal survival there is NO ADVENTURE!

As for whether this constitutes "role playing" - I respond that it's actually a reversal of the traditional role playing model.

In games like UO or EQ, the player creates a "character" that has distint attributes and then plays the part of that character.

The OAE has NO attributes ather than those of the player. All OAEs are created alike. The player does not assume the role of the OAE. Instead, the OAE represents the player himself inside the online game universe. Whatever the OAE achieves, it achieves purely by the skills of the player it represents.

Some have expressed concern over the fact that players are attempting to kill off each other's OAEs and that this renders the game too harsh. I counter that war simulations have always been a competitive player vrs player sport. The OAE merely alows the victor to gain some spoils! Is that really such a bad idea?

ISHMAEL

K2

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« Reply #37 on: September 18, 1999, 04:32:00 PM »
A very interesting idea...however it is severly flawed in many aspects.  I have no doubt that if you tried something along these lines 24/7 it would fail miserably.  Maybe I just lack your vision and all...but I just don't see how it would fly.  I would submit that your prearranged concept test with only 30 pilots is hardly a true test of your concept.  Some reasoning for my opinion.

1. It set's up an elite class of pilots.  People who will "farm" on lower skilled pilots in inferior planes.  They might not get as much points or whatever for them..but they have low risk of losing their hot ride.  I'll take three easy kills for the same amount of points as one high risk kill.

2.  Higher ranks controlling my actions? You eluded to it with you being a CO in your system...not sure if you really wish to have it in the full concept. Now you have someone telling me how to fly when i log in?  "You newbie pilot grab a McDonald Douglas bloated beast and attack that Mcdonald Douglas gazelle.  Try to drag him low so I can kill him and get the points.  Once you get back from the login screen and OEJ creation screen let me know so I can live bait you again."

3.  Disco issues:  Think it was covered pretty well.  I wanted to add that people will "intentional disco" when there is no real streak to lose, or "serious" consequences.  We see it in these low consequence games you find boring.  Someone in the gazelle that got a little low and some other gazelle pounces from 10k...yeah he will be pulling the plug in a heart beat if it will save him his "life"

4.  The pounce effect:  Assume that only the top 10% of the OAE's get the FW 190D and the P-51's to fly.  Can you imagine the attention these planes would get?  One 51 shows up and it's position will be brodcast over the country radio channel.  Then the "CO's"  would send in a ton of newbies to get slaughtered..but you never know they might kill him.  (If you don't think individuals are hunted try placing the trainer marks on your warbirds callsign.)  Once he blows his E fighting all the newbies then the opposing team comes in high with there uber planes and get's the quick kill.  So then all the uber planes would group for protection.  Perfectly logical.  Now the newbies have to contend with a pack of uber planes, with skilled pilots.  Or the newbie pilot will recognize that he will probably not beat a good pilot in a superior plane that has a bonus attached to the statistics of the plane making it even tougher so he will flat to the deck and head home.  Then he get's the pleasure of climbing to alt again before reengaging.  Now this is competitive and ruthless and to a degree realistic for a WAR.  But not fun if you just don't fly that well.  I would say I could never ever make the top 10% of pilots in warbirds with my skills.  So now I never get to fly a Mustang or a FW? Fun for the skilled veteran pilots..not fun for newer people.

4.  It is based on the premise that people would care about team objectives and the team's score.  You take 30 people, 15v15 i assume and put them in a arena for 2 hours or so.  How many missions in that two hours?  Three flights of 5 each side flying 2 missions in the 2 hours?  So a total of 12 missions or so with 12 goals or so in one session?  then stop and figure out where you are and plan?  Real easy to get the big picture.  Take a few hundred..24/7 running 50 or 60 missions a hour (total) without a break ever?  The guy who plays once a week would lose grip of the war as it was.  After about three weeks of one night streaks he may get to fly a decent plane if he is not killed by a equally skilled pilot who he meets in a equal Energy and positional contest who thrashes him because he can't make up for some 10% performance gap.  I want to lose to PILOTS...not some enhanced power gamer.


On another note:  Quake and Warbirds you find boring.  So I guess the MILLIONS who bought Quake and Quake2 and play it as a religion are just boring junkies?  I can't wait till Quake 3 comes out..it is gonna bore me to death..YEAH!!!  And Warbirds has been the online game of the year with thousands of players with active acounts.  People are so bored with it they have been playing for 4 years or so.  Plus three years of AW before that?  Damn...I know I like to spend my time completely bored playing both these games.  People find fun in their own ways.  I think your way would be fun for some...but miserable for most.  So most would not play.

And time to get off that freaking high horse of yours.  You may not wish to come across as arrogant and stuck up.  You may not wish to give the impression that you are taking your time to talk to little people with little minds.  But it sure as hell comes off that way.


O


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Andrew "katana22" Dunseith
VF-101 The Grim Reapers

[This message has been edited by K2 (edited 09-18-1999).]

burbank

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« Reply #38 on: September 18, 1999, 11:45:00 PM »
>>>The reason I have never payed to play AW or WB is because the "games" there are little more than Quake with wings. Its non-stop, empty, meaningless action that's a total yawn.<<<

ishmael, I suggest you go and participate in a well organised scenario event before you comment further.  The quote above clearly disqualifies you from making comment on the reality or otherwise of at least some portions of WarBirds activity.

There is such an event starting on Sunday evening next.  It is squad-based but I'm sure that my squad - JG54 - would find room for a visitor.  It will be running for 3 or 4 weeks/2 hours per week - you would have plenty of time to get downloaded and get up to speed to participate.
These events are very rewarding as you would have the oppurtunity to see.  
However, for many reasons listed above, I dont think they are going to set the 24/7 sim market on fire!

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burbank
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[This message has been edited by burbank (edited 09-18-1999).]

Granger

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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 1999, 01:48:00 AM »
Having an alter ego does sound like a more fun, immersive experience I will agree on that one..But by the same token..look at the stats that warbirds keeps. You can look up your performance in several catagories and see how you are doing against all the other pilots in the arena. This along gives a sense of worth to my pilot..living or dead.
 As a hard core simmer myself, it is unfortunate how the sim community reacts to things. For example..log onto air warrior3 on any given night..you will see roughly 80% of the pilots in the realaxed arena..and maybe 20% in the "real arena".
When making a sim..you surely have to look at these numbers.

Whats does all this mean??..simple..if you want people to pay for a sim..it must produce a high fun factor..for both hard core and casual flyers.If its too difficult..you will drive off the 80% that want more fun..less "realism" while pleasing the 20% that like things "realistic".

The idea I WOULD like to see implemented would be something simple..make a pilot and just keep stats on his entire career.
Missions flown, Kills, Times shot down, Times bailed, Times ditched, gunnery and bombing stats..things like that.
To me, this would give the rpg experience. Especially if it kept a "tour" and a "lifetime" total.
I even like the idea of certian points..or certian rank needed for different planes.
But I dislike any bonuses given to the mechanical aspects of the plane..if your good..you can produce these yourself due to your own flying ability..not 5% more horsepower..or 5% better roll rate or whatever. The pilot made the difference in the war..let the pilot make the difference here. Yes..I know that many wwII aces modified their planes but that should be beyond the scope of this game and would produce a nintendo wannabe type game.
"woohoo 2 more kills and i get the engine boost!" naa..make the pilots make the difference.
Warbirds has the right idea keeping stats..air warrior3 leans twords the power games..keeping points solely based on shooting down other planes. Naturally the more hours you fly, the bigger your score is going to be. The killboard is full of jobless souls and college students with lots of time on their hands. I wish they would base rank on kill/death ratio with some accuracy bonuses thrown in. This way..death will hurt you and just might make you think about fighting to the death..if your rank is based on this ratio..you will want to live and keep it high as possible.
Personally I get a big rush when im in a furball and get the engine smokin..or a fuel leak and am able to limp back to base.
Those that dont want to mess with it don't have too, they can just fly the older planes and shoot to their hearts content..those that want to get serious have that ability.


As far as scenerios go..Ive participated in a few..and usually they take way too much time to get in the air..start at 8pm..and your lucky if your airborne by 9 or 9:30.
Briefings, no-shows, idiotic banter..you name it..takes forever. I will say however the most fun ive ever had has been flying a b25 back missing one engine and nursing it home after a scenerio mission.
Scenerios take dedication and time, you wont see many casual flyers in em..and thus the scenerios usually dont have too many players in em.


Air warrior has the price down so that anyone can fly there..and as such there are many more aholes and teen age punks that fly there.
Warbirds on the other hand has many more "mature" players mainly I believe due to the pricing model.

I fly in both worlds..prefer air warrior3s full realism arena because mainly the mature players fly there..and I cant afford the pricetag of warbirds for more than 5 hours per month..not to mention theres no spin model in wb..

AH seems to be the most advanced, thoroughly thought out sim to date, if even half the things ive read about it are true. As such, I believe it will draw a more mature audience.
As far at taking the sim world by storm..we will have to wait and see on that one.

Looking mucho forward to flyin in your world


Granger
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Hired Guns squadron
AW3FR Squad, C Land

Wormie

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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 1999, 01:58:00 AM »
FD Ski:

Shouldnt that number be about 25% lower?

 Remember Skip mentioning those 2,000+ FREE accounts that were recently closed.

Wormie


Offline bod

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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 1999, 02:50:00 AM »
Come on guys. Digging hard enough you can find "prooves" that even the concept of online flight simming is a dead end, hell - even the concept of the internet. Yet, reality show us that it is possible, and it is even possible to make money on it.

Ishmael has done some rather extensive research that show, at least in part, that OAE is an idea worth considering.

All your "prooves" that his ideas is poor means abselutely nothing because you don't have anything at all to back up your statement. You cant use reasoning from unrelated experiences to show that a completely different idea is a bad one, because there is no logic in such reasoning.

Now, Hitechs remark about getting 1 mill and designing that game, is however a very valid one because HTC got their own things they want to persue. Common sence tell me that so do the rest of the online sim creators. However, common sence also tell me that after some months or years some of the sim creators will rember this idea and say: why not try it.

Ish: Have you sent your idea to iEn or Playnet, or MS or some other? If not, then for gods sake do it. No one can persue your idea better than yourself, but you might get lucky and meet some interested people.


Bod

ISHMAEL

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« Reply #42 on: September 19, 1999, 01:16:00 PM »
Ish: Have you sent your idea to iEn or Playnet, or MS or some other? If not, then for gods sake do it. No one can persue your idea better than yourself, but you might get lucky and meet some interested people.
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The only other game company I have pursued this with is Dynamix (makers of Red Baron 3D). I suspected that Dynamix would be most ameniable to this concept as 90% of their offline sims require the creation of a pilot alter ego - for the purposes of campaign play.

(BTW - the Red Baron 3D campaign game, despite its shortcomings, remains the most dynamic, intricate and well designed campaign on the sim market today. With the addition of many of the player patches, this game has had a STUNNING shelf life!)

Dynamix expressed some interest in the concept and requested an indepth explanation of how it worked and how it was applied in the Historical War (however, they did not ask me to sign an NDA with regard to the idea).

As you know, Dynamix is developing a WW2 fighter sim with free server software rumoured to support up to 64 players (however, the number of aircraft available will doubtless be smaller than the number available in Aces High). I cautioned them not to try incorporating the OAE into Desert Fighter's server software as I suspected the time available would not permit a reasonable implementation.

My interest is in getting this idea out into the marketplace. I believe that it will change online simming for the better (and for everyone, not just for the hardcore types).

Can you give me any advice on who I might contact and how I might go about it, if I wished to send the idea to any of the software makers you mentioned?

ISHMAEL

 

Offline bod

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« Reply #43 on: September 19, 1999, 02:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Can you give me any advice on who I might contact and how I might go about it, if I wished to send the idea to any of the software makers you mentioned?
Sorry, i am not in the online gaming business, but i am sure some other people here have some names.

Othervise it all depends on how much effort you want to put into it.

Bod

chester

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« Reply #44 on: September 19, 1999, 03:20:00 PM »
ISH,take heart! The point you are trying to make is a very valid one.you are going to have to wait awhile to see it happen though.you invited me to take part in your test because of my posts on DELPHI regarding player behavior in RB2.I ,for one ,am here to say you are RIGHT! please bear in mind these things n-line air combat is very young.the player base is very unorganized.the thrill of pulling the trigger is overwhelming.as the players mature,the sims mature and the delivery systems mature,so will game play.the things i read,that every one dislikes,seem to relate to player behavior.it will take some time before players grow weary and want for more.the game writers have been doing a steller job of producing good software.the players,not so good.yes todays on-line sim experance is sorely lacking.if only they would fly more realistly.if only they would stop furballing at 100ft .if only there were some reason to try to stay alive.....but thats how it is.......and wont be for some time to come.think  my good man,i built my first machine in 1980 for no reason but to test sim software,and still wait.at 53 i may never see on-line air combat evolve past its current trigger -twiching state,but still i hope.dont stop cursading!some day we will all look back at this era and laugh.