Author Topic: How To Conquer the Flight Sim Market  (Read 2038 times)

ISHMAEL

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How To Conquer the Flight Sim Market
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 1999, 05:39:00 PM »
i may never see on-line air combat evolve past its current trigger -twiching state,but still i hope.dont stop cursading!some day we will all look back at this era and laugh.
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There is nothing wrong with the players. It's the SYSTEM that's screwed. Change the system and player behaviour will change.

THAT was the point of my test. I took players who were used to the inter-squad shoot-em-up wars and threw a new system at them - one that rewarded survival more than kills.

My hypothesis was that their behaviour would soon adapt as the grew to understand the reward system. It took a few weeks of learning but slowly things altered in the air. Players ran away from combat or avoided it all together (when the odds were against them). This was a new thing in MMP.

Game designers have provided us with a BROKEN air combat system that incorrectly models the air tactical environment precicely because it leaves out THE MOST VALUABLE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT IN AN AIRCRAFT:

THE PILOT.

Put the pilots in the planes and everything changes. I can't put it any more plainly than that.

ISHMAEL

chester

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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 1999, 08:35:00 AM »
ish, you used what you call broken software to create a new experance.we as gamers cannot hold the coders responsible for our use of their work.there are excellent sims in todays market.but they are being under exploited.this is a player problem.you can drive backwards in NASCAR2,but why would you?? many of us have been running sims for many years. others are new to this genre.the excitement is greater than the goal.perhaps that will change.as this beta moves foward continue to encourage players to fly in a more realistic manner.some will, and see the rewards.mabey,just mabey ,there might even be aircraft higher than 1000ft in this try.mabey not.but if players cant or wont try to create a more belivable sim world with AH,there will be other sims.try to set an example.monkey see,monkey do....

silly plonk

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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 1999, 11:18:00 AM »
moved to a new post

[This message has been edited by silly plonk (edited 09-20-1999).]

ISHMAEL

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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 1999, 05:39:00 PM »
A Reply to K2 regarding the OAE:

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It set's up an elite class of pilots.
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Yes it does. HOWEVER...if an "Elite" pilot dies in combat, he starts again at the bottom, just like everyone else. In a never-ending war scenario, this results in a constant turn-over in command. No "clique" of high scorers can form on a permanant basis.


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Higher ranks controlling my actions?
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No. My system has always presumed player freedom. What happens is that higher ranks gain access to certain scoring parameters. They can prioritize targets or activities and thus increase the amount of points players would score for achieving those objectives. Players are free to ignore HQ priorities, but following those directives will result in more points and quicker rank advancement.

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People will "intentional disco"
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Yes. In combat (within range of enemy guns), this can be treated in a number of ways. One way I mentioned is to treat a combat disco exactly like a parachute attempt (which results in a kill award to the closest enemy). A non-combat disco may result in lost experience and/or points gained during that flight. This discourages intentional ditching. Other measures may be implemented as well.

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The pounce effect:
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There are complex issues of play-balance that would need to be addressed through beta-testing to achieve the right combination of rewards to facilitate the best player experience. The reservation of aircraft types is but one reward concept. However, just as "power-ups" in console games are only available after you beat a certain "level," so too the better aircraft are offered as a reward for long-living high-scoring pilots. Getting to fly a better aircraft gives the player a sense of accomplishment. How limited the supply of such aircraft should be is a question of play-balance that would need to be resolved through play testing.

As for sending waves of low-experience pilots after a veteran, the OAE system (as I have designed it) would reward the experienced OAE with up to four times the point value for kills scored by the low-valued pilots. One would have to be careful sending lambs to the slaughter. It might not be such a good cost-benefit option.

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It is based on the premise that people would care about team objectives and the team's score.
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It actually isn't. Personalizing the point structure was one of the primary goals of the OAE system as I first developed it.

Prior to the Historical War, inter-squadron online warfare in Red Baron 3D scored all points to a team. No pilot scored his own points. I felt that this led players to feel alienated from their online experiences. Therefore, to connect the player to his alter ego, I connected all points to the individual. YOU score 10 points, they are YOUR 10 points.

The team score is simply the sum of all player scores.

I presume that players only care about themselves. I realize that many are far more altruistic than that but those platyers are not the problem. The "problem" players are often those that are in the game only for their egos.

The OAE system was then designed so that the best way to win points, decorations, ranks, powers, and prestige was to help out your team (and help out your teammates) and keep yourself alive at the same time. This way, all players are encouraged to conform to historical realities, by virtue of the large rewards available to those who do so.

However...players remain free entities and no one forces them to fly any way other than the way they choose.

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So I guess the MILLIONS who bought Quake and Quake2 and play it as a religion are just boring junkies?
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Pac Man was once the highest grossing video game in the world. Play that one lately?

Just because something is currently the best option available does not mean we put an end to innovation. All of the arguments thus far presented against the OAE concept thus far ultimately include some form of the "it ain't broke so don't fix it" nonsence. Even you ultimately reveal the true origins of your protest by resorting to such comments.

This is why I actually have no faith that ANY of the arguments I have put forward here will have any affect on your opinion of the OAE. You will remain unconvinced until someone actually builds it and you experience it.

I was unhappy with the online games thus far presented to us by the game manufacturers. I thought I could make something FAR better and FAR more exciting, and I set out to prove it.

I have succeeded in proving to my own satisfaction that I was right.

ISHMAEL

I believe that the ideal game has a virtually infinite horizon - always offering one more reward to the player to push him further and continue to provide that sense of accomplishment and challenge.



Offline Tone

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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 1999, 08:42:00 AM »
I like this idea.  It opens the possibility of using a big stogie as a power-up.

tone

Offline wrench

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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 1999, 01:07:00 AM »
I agree with HiTech and Pyro on this issue, however I also believe that a flat rate per month itself will do a lot to change player behavior in any arena. Because you won't have to pay extra $$$ to fly extra smart (please dont cite any AW flat rate failures etc, AW was never WB and isn't about to compete with AH).

Oh yea, and giving an expert bonus's on AC performance is a good way to alienate new players in about 2 sorties. Being an expert is a bonus itself and you dont really need any AC performance enhancements.

And I will never respect an alter ego as much as I respect callsigns like eman, quiz, worr, flet, ogre, kodiak, hitech, pyro, vila, the list goes on and on. I like to think someone respects wrench too  . You build your rep over years of play and starting a new one every time I die would get old fast.

Pyro, I would love to see a 2-4 week scenerio that only gave each pilot 1 life, period, now that is white knuckle...please do this.

Also I hope that any scenerio's in AH would be scored and reported on properly and in a timely fashion, I can't tell you how many times I tried for an ACE in a WB scenerio, only to find that the one time I did it, the scenerio was never reported on and the scores never posted,,,BIG TIME LETDOWN.

Wrench -=Night Stalkers=-
Leave that thing alone!
Relax said the Knight, man, we are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Offline jmccaul

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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2000, 01:36:00 PM »
I though i'd punt this thread as the orginal idea involved rewarding players with better planes, abilities etc. but mainly because both hitech and pyro posted on it and it will probably give some insight into there philosophy.

HaHa

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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2000, 01:41:00 PM »
A number of people, including myself, have posted numerous threads dealing with this exact same topic. In my posts I always compared the flight sim market to "quakeism", whereas it should be more like "everquestism".

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2000, 01:43:00 PM »
Thanks!  I didn't even know this thread existed.  Interesting stuff.

-- Todd/DMF

Offline maddog

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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2000, 05:20:00 PM »
I do see the need for rewarding better skill sets without destroying the game for others. I think that awarding ranks to players based on score (and showing them in the game buffer) would provide those who care with some incentive to fly the way many believe they should. On the other hand those with a devil may care attitude can continue unabated. As I've gotten a little better it has become easier to avoid the dreaded HO and FUs cannon fodder. Why the better pilots complain about this is a mistory to me...
Anyway I look forward to meeting General Torque in the air.....
doc

Offline humble

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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2000, 05:48:00 PM »
I read about 2/3rd's of the way thru and have to add my 2 cents...I have 5+ yrs in flight sims...and your "model" wouldn't hold my attention for 30 seconds Ishmael. I'm not interested in artificial skill enhancement or points...I play for score everyday in the real world...and in my own way I play for score here also...I match my skill, or lack of, against other sim pilot's. Now we dont always play the same game...but that's ok. Often I've found that many (not all by any means) of the experten can play my game better than I can...other times i'm amazed by the raw ability some novices have for air combat...not what many folks here confuse as combat...if it's not low slow and 1 on 1..it doesnt count in my book...but thats just me.

realism exists just where it belongs...in the REAL world...this is a sim. In an Ideal world i can come in fly for 20 min...have fun (win or lose)...and go back to the real world. If I have more time...one day soon...i can join others in a historic scenario where my individual efforts will impact the recreation of history. AW warnights where a great middle ground...limited plane set, limited time and 3 lives per person, truthfully it doesn't get better than that for me. 90 minutes or so of pure adrenalin...once you've flown interferance for your buddy as he nurses his cripple back in thru an enemy jabo sortie on your last remaining field...with both of you on strike 3...nothing comes close.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

AKSeaWulfe

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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2000, 07:10:00 PM »
Ish, you know who I am. I flew in your "test" of the OAE or whatever you want to call it.. But I flew as "Kurt Wulfe" in your Great War. Yes it was intense, fun and amazingly incredibly cool to "live" the life of a pilot... OTOH, it was cool as an experience. It was extremely trying on the nerves and not for the casual combat pilot in AH, WB, AW, RB3D, FC, BoB or anything else that's out there. I consider myself a "casual" AH player. I log in, fly around, kill a few planes, and try my hardest to RTB. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I get great amusement out of it. I'm still a "newbie" to combat sims by some of these guy's standards, I started with Confirmed Kill v.91 and have been flying since(1994). I consider myself to have learned a great deal since I first started and I'd say that I can fly **competently**. The only thing I WOULD like to see would be for HTC to write code to keep track of kill streaks and to keep track of your high kill streak. That would make for some interesting things to look at. Obviously they'd have to write code that also showed which plane they used the most for that streak and say someone who flies a F4U-1C against lower alt slower planes all the time will most likely have a high kill streak than say a Spit pilot or a zero pilot flying against the P51s, F4Us, 190s and 109s(of course it's always dependent on pilot skill.. someone could kick bellybutton in a Spit and dominate over every plane in the arena easily while someone could suck dirt and get wrecked on in a 109G10 against every other plane in the arena). This is not meant as a "oh this uber plane that uber plane" comment, just to say that streaks are dependent on pilots really and the planes they fly. That way, for those who DO care about living in the arena have a way of tracking it, while those who don't, don't have to worry about it.

In this long winded post that is really pointless, it honestly comes down to this. Having a pilot's name who you get to fly as and decide how long he lives and how many kills he gets before he dies or gets captured is extremely amazingly fun.. and very cool experience. BUT, it's fun to do that once or twice a week on planned events, and for a limited time. I would not want to fly your Great War for more than how long it was at the time, I had my kicks and my kills and I died in it. I was extremely cautious engaging and this lead to long long long boring flights until you engaged or were engaged. When this happen it was about 20seconds to 15 minutes of pure adrenaline rushes. Something you can also acquire in the main arena without risking losing a valuable pilot that you spent your time building up(and paying for in AH's case). Also the amount of crap HTC would have to redo for this to work would be simply horrific and I think everyone who likes scenarios where your pilot's life does matter would agree with me on this one, HTC's time would be better spent building new aircraft, new terrains and setting up cool scenarios or historical events. I enjoy the MA and these scenarios and I enjoyed your Great War. But they are all different and I enjoy them all for different reasons. MA because I get to learn new stuff all the time and have amazing fights without worrying about my pilot losing his life(note: I still fly cautiously and don't engage in suicidal fights and I never take the HO shot unless I goof and pull up to a plane at the apex of his vertical climb). I like scenarios because it's cool as hell to fly allied vs axis setups. And I liked your great war because I got to have a "campaign" like in single player games where my pilot's life mattered and I was rewarded medals and such for success. But take away my main arena and I'm gonna be one pissed off customer because I like AH the way it is. Maybe a few tweaks, but they are coming down the road and I'll just wait for HTC to complete them so I don't get a half-assed product(ala Red Baron 3D or European Air War-- this is not a slam.. they were/are fun to fly.. but nevertheless half assed).
-SW

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2000, 08:55:00 PM »
I'm a big advocate of the HA, but HiTech is right (obviously) about the majority of main arena players, they have no desire for that type of flying.

If anything I would like to see the tools provided for multiple weekly scheduled scenarios which for me personally have always felt more realistic than the HA due to their mission format and coordinated teamwork.

the problem is we just don't have that yet.

but it will be here one day
perhaps we will even get a historical arena one day too.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

funked

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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2000, 08:59:00 PM »
Just read Pyro's post - so true.

Offline Badger

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« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2000, 06:40:00 AM »
ISHMAEL...

Are you still here?

I tried to contact you via private e-mail in your profile, but it bounced.

I would like to chat with you about your concepts unrelated to AH, but rather a competitve situation.

If you read this, please send me an e-mail to the address in my profile.  If anyone has a current address on ISHMAEL, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks...

Regards,
Badger