How To Conquer the Flight Sim Market

[Ram1]

HT:

I think you have an opportunity. There are two main reasons there are not more pilots in the HA in WBs.

1. Its not flat rate and folks don't whant to take the longer time and pay more to find a fight.

2. No terrain editor to make some really good set ups for historical matchups.

While not for everyone, I think the HA concept (flying against historical adversaries) is what many hardcore simmers are looking for (that sense of history). In your Sim you have the basic building blocks in place to make a HA work very effectively IMO.

I'm also sure you would have no shortage of folks who would volunteer their time to do the setups and manage the arena lessening any burden on your staff.

So having both arenas (HA and MA) with the game structure and features you have now and plan to have could be a winning strategy for a HA arena.

That is what I have been promoting for and will continue to do so. Eventually someone will take the ball and deliver a Historical Arena that can be made successful on a continual basis.

Ram1
31st Fighter Group

Originally posted by hitech:

You dont want to look at fact's like the historical arena in WB's if the general players wanted more along these lines the historical arena would have a lot more players in it then the main, care to comment on why this is? Or is it the players who enjoy the main just dont get it and we should ignor them?

[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Maniac]

Good points Ram...



------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[ISHMAEL]

Badger!

I do not know how to access profiles. I'll see if I can figure it out.

Unfortunately, I've been away from home on a job site in Atlanta for the past month or so. Please email me at: christopher.ash@ps.ge.com

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Skorpyon]

What appears to have been neglected so far is that in recent historical scenarios that have taken place, a very basic form of Ish's concept has been followed.  In the initial instructions, it has been clearly stated that once you die, you are dead.. simple enough, real enough... for the rest of that scenario.  Another example is the TOD that was running for a while (haven't seen anything on the board lately.. dunno).  Same rules applied there.  But this "realistic" pilot life/campaign was limited to a specific time and activity, so only those interested in participating need do so.  Everyone else can "run and gun" in the MA.  Personally, I fly quite often for "realism" in the main arena, choosing to extend and escape, rtb, and come back up.  Do I need the arena to be designed this way for me to do it?.. Nope.  Does everyone else in the arena have to be flying for realism for me to do so?  Nope.  I think Ish's idea has a great deal of merit, but is not suitable to the main arena of combat, rather to its own special area, to be enjoyed by those who want to do it that way.  The open format main arena caters to all types, and allows everyone to fly the style they want to fly.  In a confusing, "Air Quake" type of day in the arena, our squadron has put together missions and carried them out, oblivious to how the rest of the arena is playing, and the adrenaline rush of trying to stay alive to complete your mission and help your squad mates seems as real as I am going to experience, without tweaking the whole game to force everyone to play in "campaign mode".  I say, shop the idea around, if ya can find someone to develop it, it will have its own niche, but for commercially viable, MMP, it doesn't seem to be a money maker.  Limiting people's choices isn't a good way to build a broad customer base.

------------------
Skorpyon
I/JG2 ~Richthofen~
"Feel the Sting......"

[Beegerite]

Damn!  There is intelligent life out there!  Both HiTech and Ishmael are putting forth their opinions in an extremely eloquent manner.  Reading Ishmael's ideas I thought how much they concurred with mine and I was ready to sign up.  Then HiTech reminded me of the fact that real life fighter combat is hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.  On the bottom line, Ishmael unless we've walked a mile in their moccasins we can't imply that game developers are all morons.  HiTech's suggestion though direct (Put your money where your mouth is) is actually the way you should go.  Your writing style indicates that you are a person of some education and intelligence.  My suggestion would be that you use that eloquence and intelligence in putting together a detailed business plan and try to sell your idea to some investors.
Good Luck
Beeg
 

Originally posted by hitech:
Ish it's realy very simple (PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS) go raise a couple of million and go write the game you wish. If it works well i'll be the first to say I was wrong.

But I have 10 years of playing and writing online sim's. Ive seen lots of concept's tried, some failed some worked.
With the attitude you portraied in your last post it sounds like you think all game writers dont have a clue and you have the magic answer. Well if you belive that so strongly get off your duff and go do it yourself!

Iv'e probably pushed the flight sim realism as much or more than any other flight sim developer I can think of. And am truly underserving of the tone in your last post.

You dont want to look at fact's like the historical arena in WB's if the general players wanted more along these lines the historical arena would have a lot more players in it then the main, care to comment on why this is? Or is it the players who enjoy the main just dont get it and we should ignor them?

As for alway using Quake as an example I for one would have loved to develope Quake. It's player type is not the people who like flight sims but none the less just because they enjoy it and you don't dosnt make it any less of a popular and great game.

And btw I have experenced excitement like you are talking,there called senerios. I also know that senerios dont work on a full time bases, but then you dont wish to have your mind cluttered with facts. Like the simple way you structued your test is incorect. Runing the test once a week totaly invalidated all your data. In normal game play people don't come in at a set time for a 2 hour session. There moods very every night they come in. Some nights they wish to just have fun furballing. Other night's they want to see how long they can go on a kill without death streak. Some times they will take a troop transport just because the team needs it. Try getting that done with someone on a long streak under your plan. Other nights people just want to log on and have fun with there buddies. They arn't concerened about their life long carrer they just want fun with friends. Online gaming is lot more than just simply playing the realism game like a box could be. You have to allow for ideal times for people to chat and have fun ,all white knucle type flying would have a big deturent on players talking with each other. Can you imagin dieing to a typeing death in your setup? You wouldn't take the risk. I could go on and on about game play issues, they are somthing I've thought about daily for that past 5 years but i've been rambling a tad here so time to end it.


HiTech

[Beegerite]

Pyro;

Good points.  Most important the sentence that the idea has some merits even if it has some problems.  Relating to my elsewhere posted issue with how I want your sim to run, I would hope that at some time you will come up with a separate arena where those of us who want total immersion can have it without stepping on the toes of those who don't.  

The best idea, and one which will probably get you anything you want from the wives of the addicts is the "one death and you're back with your family"

One last point.  Call any of your local drug and alcohol rehabs and ask any recovering addict to describe when their drinking or drug use crossed from social to a problem and they'll tell you;

<snip>

They wonder why the game has lost so much of the excitement that it once had.  They search for new ways to reacquire that same level of excitement that they felt when they first started.  

<snip>

Beeg

[Lizard3]

Some of you guys need a calander. This is an OOOOOLD thread. Mostly dredged up for comparison sake. Addressing Ish's issues now is as much a mute point as their can be.

------------------
Liz of TSM
  "Never take counsel of your fears."
T.J.(Stonewall) Jackson

[ISHMAEL]

Some of you guys need a calander. This is an OOOOOLD thread....Addressing Ish's issues now is as much a mute point as their can be.
---------

Unsurprisingly, I disagree.

The idea has proven to have a life of its own.

For my own satisfaction, I will write one more post to clarify my intent.

The purpose of the OAE is NOT to satisfy the grognads of flight simming. The purpose is to provide goals and rewards to casual players which will produce (incidentaly) more realistic player tactics on a grand scale.

It is my contention that a game is more fun when a tangable reward progression is tied to the gaming system. When players reap game-based rewards for their actions (ie. advancing a level, snatching a "power-up," defeating a "boss," getting a new, cool weapon), they enjoy the experience all the more.

ISHMAEL

[ezrust]

Wow.  Very interesting thread.
I fly to live most of the time and am more satisfied landing a mission wherin I killed nothing but barely escaped then one where I got three kills and then collided in a head on.
It is certainly fun to try to build a streak and I agree with Ishmael on the current lack of any incentive to live.
However, I also agree with HiTech that not everyone wants to fly to live every night.
I also have some issues with the current scoring system so let me tell you what I do:

I have created two virtual pilots in my mind and on paper, a "high risk" pilot and a "conservative" pilot.  On the nights when I feel like being realistic I fly my conservative pilot.  I fly to 25,000 feet and only engage If the odds favor me.  If I become outnumbered I run.  If my fuel precludes my going home by continuing, I turn around.  
On nights I feel like fighting it out I play my "high risk" pilot and dive into the action.
Now, after each sortie I write a short narrative of the mission.  That way, if I've played my high risk pilot for three days I can catch up on where my conservative pilot is before I start on a conservative mission.

The beauty of it is I keep my own scores.  If I shoot the wings off a plane and another pilot fires at him and is awarded the kill I don't care.  In my narrative I claim the kill.  Incidentally, I've only managed to get a streak of 10 with my conservative guy and 8 with my high risk guy.

So I sort of have my own version of the OAE thing happening and I use a scoring system I feel is fair.

My point brings a possible sollution to the OAE debate-  have two.  Have one guy you want to see live and with whom you are extremely careful and have one guy you use when you feel like flying risky.

One must be careful to also consider the learning curve.  Remember back to the days when each of you first flew Warbirds or Air Warrrior (HiTech, you can think back to the days you first WROTE Warbirds   )  You took off...POW! you're dead.  You took off... SLAM! Dead again.  I flew for 4 or 5 days before I got my first lucky kill.  Many people would have given up after day 2 or 3- It is just so damn hard.  Now, give the newbies crappy planes to fight against uber-crates and that 4 or 5 days turns into 4 or 5 weeks maybe.  I just don't think most people are going to continue playing that game.

The guys that fly these sims are so much better than their real life counterparts because they've logged hundreds more hours and have gotten the oportunity to die again and again and learn from each mistake... If anything, newbies need BETTER planes.  Penalize people for lack of experience and there will simply be no one left to play.

rust

[This message has been edited by ezrust (edited 05-30-2000).]

[Grizzly]

An old thread but very interesting.

Ishmael's idea has merit and could someday be implimented somehow. But I would suggest, as others have, that it be in a special arena for those who wish to play this type of game when they wish to play it. Perhaps to ensure all players take this type of play seriously, some sort of screening process be used.

But more to my point, IMHO Ishmael has made a mistake in judgement of massive online air combat sim game play. He tried the free trial on WB and AW. One cannot come to a valid conclusion in this manner. Also, one cannot begin to compare online play between a game like RB or EAW and the likes of AW, WB and AH. There is the missing elements of community and group dynamics. Ishmael questioned why more sim junkies don't play massive online sims. I think the answer (aside from not knowing they exist) is fear... fear of interacting with a large group of strangers in a personal way. (It is like someone sticking a microphone in your face and asking you to say something.)

Remember the first time you entered an arena. You likely did not know what you should do or how to do it. Your first kill may have been a friendly. You may have been shy and avoided interacting with the other players at first. Over a period of time you learned the ropes, met other players and the game took on a new personality. It is only then that you can begin to judge and understand what a game like AW, WB and AH have to offer.

These games tend to provide players with the tools they need to play a game, but the game they choose to play is left up to them. The community and peer pressure are somewhat define what accepted game play should be, but the host can provide different areas catering to tastes. IMHO, this is where the role playing option belongs.

Over the years these massive air combat sims have evolved together, by some of the same people. A great deal of experience has been gained which should not be discounted. This didn't happen in a vaccuum. Folks like HiTech are very aware of group dynamics and how to culture an online community. If someone wishes to role play, they are free to do so in the context of the existing games. In AW I know of a number of players that try to preserve their virtual life as in the real world. But in some cases these personnas are not well accepted by the community. One of the bains to many are those who cruise at high altitudes to pounce on their victims, and then run when they loose their advantage. I somehow doubt if those who dislike this form of reality would enjoy playing in Ishmael's game environment.

Enough of my diatribe, it's an interesting concept that likely will be tried eventually. I'll be most interested in seeing the results.

grizzly

[DocDoom]

Ishmael has obvious passion for the higher end of the spectrum. However, you can pound and pound and pound ... it doesn't change a lot unless what you are pounding on lacks structural integrity  

All things being equal, the biggest single factor you must accept is that only those who value what you value can make the arena a fair place if that fairness is based upon "behaviour" being much the same for all those that choose to fly there.

Try as you may ... no matter what you use as "incentive" ... the realistic virtual pilot (fears death, tries to survive at all cost, etc. etc.) is always going to be at the mercy of the kamikaze I will never die/click fly re-spawn warrior.

If your opponent cares nought for realism, implied or otherwise, and cares equally little for the rewards you put in place to attract those who would fly that way anyway (for the sheer thrill of it and it being what they seek from the outset) ... they will hold all the cards because no consequence matters (death being the worst case) and yet the opposite is true for the "realism" flyer. One has nothing to lose, and flies accordingly, the other has EVERYTHING to lose but can never hope to engage the re-spawn warrior on terms where he can rely on fear of consequence being remotely similar to his own ... the gameplay is stilted from his POV and can never hope to be as ideallic as what you seek, no matter how desirable it may be to you, I, and others like us.

What you seek, and perhaps one day will get ... is an arena where all present in the virtual world agree on the "death" issue and thus can be relied upon to help create a virtual reality where they fly and act like dying matters, by common agreement, a little like reality in the real world, in some respects.

That ... or one day we can actually FORCE death upon the participants, rather than it being a choice ... THEN you'd really see what you're hoping for, but, I am here to suggest, you won't be seeing that anytime soon  

After all ... death mattered in real life because you had little control over it, except to avoid those situations. In sim life, you ALWAYS have the choice, and most choose to ignore it, and thus death does not exist. If, in this environment, you choose to belive death exists (as in fly accordingly) then what you really have, is YOU, a mere mortal ... trying to wage war on superman.

You're NEVER going to win that battle  

Unless you can REMOVE the superman types, because if they get the choice, they'll choose the cape and red underwear everytime  

Doc.
 

[roland]

doc

I believe that the superman factor can be eliminated by having Death be severe.

By severe, I mean, the pilot who dies has to pony up US$100, to be put on a holding account. At the end of the war, the money is divided among the winners.

Now, the incentive to win and complete the mission is that if you dont, you gotta pay US$10 that go into this account  

------------------
Roland, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel (WB)

You're gonna fly high, you're never gonna die
You're gonna make it if you try, they're gonna love you
-Pink Floyd

[jmccaul]

should i dredge up the rest of the ish realated threads?

[ISHMAEL]

You mean there are more???? ;-)

IHMAEL

[jmccaul]

well 1 (which is even loooongeeer) and a few related ones.