Religion & Science

[beet1e]

"Parents bring up their children believing in Santa Claus, then wonder why children don't just believe in God on their say-so" - English comedian, Jasper Carrot.

[bounder]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Since the Evolution debates always seem to degenerate into a question of faith vs. observation, I wonder if there is a way to reconcile religion and science, especially when a scientific observation flies in the face of a religious belief.

For the most part, I believe that religion has been the largest hindrance to the expansion of man's knowledge over recorded history.

Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.

While there are instances of Religious men doing stellar work in the sciences, it wasn't their religion that urged them as much as their ability to think beyond their religion.

So has religion helped us or hurt us regarding our knowledge of the world?

LIke everything else, the answer is both.

Islam has provided us with a thousand years of Scholarship that moved us from astrology to astronomy, gave us the number 0, and heavily influenced western moral philosophy.

Laz was right about the religion/discipline link. The way religion permits you to shun the self in favour of service to others, to repeat and devote yourself to a given field (like the Mendel the monk and his peas).

The burning of the Library at alexandria does not mean that we are somehow 500 years behind our potential development. It is impossible to say how it affected the development of western scientific thinking, and wrong to automatically surmise that it somehow damaged our 'progress'.

Even the concept of progress as affected by religion is a pretty spurious nineteenth century invention, this Idea that mankind is somehow moving forward in anything but time.

So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by bounder
So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.

Isn't that a quote attributed to Galileo?

[bounder]

not that I'm aware of - I just wrote it.

[hazed-]

over history huge swathes of knowledge have been destroyed by religious fanatics.Christians burned libraries in the middle east, The great library of the greeks burned,Hitler tried it too by burning all material he deemed un-nazilike nazism not a religion? I think you'd best look into just how weird it all got.They even believed they could use the spirits of long dead tutonic knights to empower their warriors!, Hitler sought the 'spear of destiny', the spear that apparently peirced Jesus's side on the cross.Legend has it that an army with this is invinsible.(hehe maybe he mislayed it in 1944 )

Religion , without doubt has been the cause of huge losses to our knowledge.Not only by destroying records but by persecuting the thinkers of their time.Imagine how many genious people throughout history were stopped by the religious fanaticism that branded any contrary thinker a heretic and burned them at the stake.

Its even happening today with things like genetics. Whether we like it or not the use of genetics will continue but its much to do with religion that holds it back presently.The debate enters the 'messing with gods work' far more often than the subject of how it could actually stop huge amounts of suffering for people with degenerative deseases. Plus look at the wars going on. Its all religion and money. The greed for money and the excuse religion gives nations to act in totally inhumane ways.

RELIGION SUCKS, its just a way to control people by fear.If it was adhered to in the true way it was probably intended then we'd all be fine but unfortunately it has just becme a tool of power.True it has indeed been the home of science in a way for it was generally religious  types who wrote it all down but due to the ferocity of the various factions all they ever did was try to destroy what the other had achieved. BAN religion I say BURN EM , BURN EM AT THE STAKE!!! YAAAAAYYYYY

[Syzygyone]

Originally posted by bounder


Islam has provided us with a thousand years of Scholarship that moved us from astrology to astronomy, gave us the number 0, and heavily influenced western moral philosophy.  

Islam is a religion.  Please point out the specific source in Islam of the concept of Zero. I don't contest that those and other fundamental concepts came from those who might have practiced Islam as a religion, but to attribute those concepts to the religion is erroneous.

Originally posted by bounder

So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.

To the suggestion that they exist in harmony, I suggest while they seeminlgy exist in harmony, but that is only because science has not yet bumped into everything espoused by religion.  When it does, i.e. creation vs. evolution, there is much wailing and nashing of teeth, but scientific explanation ultimately wins out, i.e. the world is not flat and is not the center of the universe.  Science endeavours to develop knowledge of and to explain that which we do not currently understand by impirical analysis.  Religions, on the other hand, are universally supported by the hypothesis that humans are incapable of knowing some (many) things and thus must rely on faith to explain the as yet unexplainable.

So, if humans ever know everything, then there will be no need for religion and all humans will be God.  Perhaps humans are Gods in training and it will take a bazillion years to learn everything.  Then those that can graduate from God School can create their own universe and start the cycle all over again.

So, with that said, I have to go advance my knowledge of the BnZ fighting characteristics of the P-38 lightening!  Baby steps, folks, baby steps!

[firbal]

For me, all knowlege comes from God. He gives us knowlege a little at a time for what we can handle. If you look at Science, it's always changing Sciencities are always learning news things. Remember, just a few hundred years ago the comman thought was that the earth was flat. We now know it's round. And that the Solar System, or Universe revolve around the earth. So we keep changing our threse as we come across new knowlege in science.
I don't think that God and Science are not odds with each other.

[Rude]

Religion is a product of Mankind....has nothing to do with God.

Jesus himself warned that the religious(Pharisee's and Sadusee's...) were themselves the worst of mankind.

For most, you cannot understand something that you have no knowledge of....you seek to apply the physical to that which is spiritual. You have eye's yet cannot see and ears which do not hear. Pride and self are your God.

Be assured that at some point in your life, God will deal with you and at that time, you will make a choice. Perhaps you already have, or do not understand what I'm speaking of....still, that time will come and when it does, you'll know it.

God loves us all and his desire is to give life and life abundantly through fellowship with him. I have experienced this and know it to be true.

Now, I would be a liar if I left you thinking that I was better than any of you....the truth lies in the following....

"It is by Grace that we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast."

Hard concept to swallow I admit....still the truth remains regardless of the opinion of mankind.

BTW MT....science is merely mankinds effort to define the undefinable.

[Syzygyone]

Originally posted by Rude
Religion is a product of Mankind....has nothing to do with God.

Jesus himself warned that the religious(Pharisee's and Sadusee's...) were themselves the worst of mankind.

For most, you cannot understand something that you have no knowledge of....you seek to apply the physical to that which is spiritual. You have eye's yet cannot see and ears which do not hear. Pride and self are your God.

Be assured that at some point in your life, God will deal with you and at that time, you will make a choice. Perhaps you already have, or do not understand what I'm speaking of....still, that time will come and when it does, you'll know it.

God loves us all and his desire is to give life and life abundantly through fellowship with him. I have experienced this and know it to be true.

Now, I would be a liar if I left you thinking that I was better than any of you....the truth lies in the following....

"It is by Grace that we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast."

Hard concept to swallow I admit....still the truth remains regardless of the opinion of mankind.

BTW MT....science is merely mankinds effort to define the undefinable.

So, let me get this straight.  Your belief in God and your statements about his attributes of love and his desires are not "religion"?  Sorry sir, but I find that statement hypocritcal.  I'll grant you that God is above religion: he/she/it is what he/she/it is and nothing humans spout can change that.  But once you begin to attribute any quality to God, i.e. that he "deals with humans, you are defining religious belief, or, in other words, espousing a religion.  I am happy that you have your God.  He may even be the same as my God.  Your God may even be THE GOD.  I am sure you think he is.  But, chances are, there are a few billion humans who don't share your view.  Now, you say that human opinion is irrelevant.  If that were true, why would God "deal" with humans.

And Rude, respectfully sir, I cannot agree with your theory that science is the effort to define that which is undefinable.  That we cannot currenlty define something does not mean that it is undefineable, only that humans are currently lack the knowledge to define it, i.e. people used to think aerial flight was magic.  We know it is not.  Science is the effort to understand the parameters of our existence.

And a question about Grace.  If it is solely by the Grace of God, and not our works that humans are saved, and it may well be, then how does one acquire the Grace of God, or how is the Grace of God distributed, if not by the works we perfom. Again, I sense hypocricy there.  You see, I think that someone who does good all his or her life, has a better chance at salvation, or at obtaining the Grace of God, than does say, someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, or Adolph Hitler.

Geez, I'm regressing back to collegiate nights of wine infected mullings about the meaning of existence, etc etc.  I better stop.  It hurts!  Sorry.

[Rude]

Religion is merely a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. I suppose if you stand on that alone, you could lump all believers into this definition.

I suppose my belief is that Religion is the organized product of man, not God. A personal relationship with the living God is not a religion as man defines it.

As to science defined, I'll buy your take:)

Regarding grace and how to aquire it...it's a free gift from God for those who believe on his only son...his death and his resurrection.

If you truly want to know, then read Ephesians chapter 2.....the Bible defines it much more accurately than I can. To be honest, it is a hard concept for me to understand....still, by faith it is mine.

I don't pretend to be better than anyone.....I'm just sharing my personal beliefs with you guys....am I perfect...absolutely not. Will I mess up today before bedtime....yep. Does God love me more than you...most certainly not.

It's not about what we think or what makes sense to us....God is not here for us to define him. We are here to serve him....yes by works and sacrifice to one another. This life is not an easy one to follow. I personally was and am to some degree the most selfish, self serving jerk that ever walked God's green earth....however, when I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and began to serve him rather than my flesh, then the promises of what some see as just a book began to manifest themselves in my life.

Ya see, the Bible is unlike other written works....the words do not just lie on the pages but are full of power....the power to change your life forever.

The Bible speaks of being born again....anyone who has known me before I was saved will attest to the fact that God changed my heart....I am not the same man as I was before. Just ask my wife:)

The truth remains....God loves us all and wants the fellowship with his creation he once had....only by his Son can we recieve the Father...not very palitable for most folks I agree....still, God defines truth in life, not men.

Sorry for preachin...MT's just a trouble maker:)

[midnight Target]

Rude,

You might be surprised how much I agree with you.

Once again my point was all about religion vs. science, not your personal relationship with god or Jesus or whatever the power the you worship might be called.

Truth be told I have a little bit of envy for people that find that level of grace and happiness in their lives, and have nothing derogatory to say about that.

Now religion is a whole other kettle of wax balls. If an entity (religion) draws an imaginary line in the sand and says.."past this point is unknowable... don't bother", then I feel the need to throw down.

And when man endeavors to know beyond this imaginary point... and what he finds contradicts the religious doctrine, it is in the religion's best interest to squelch the knowledge gained. Because religious doctrine is not a learned thing, or a hypothesis to be tested, it is (according to the religion) as immutable as a (fill in really immutable thing here).

So religion by definition MUST resist the expansion of knowledge unless said religion is perfect. And since religions are the creation of men and not God they are decidedly imperfect. <----- dam thats freakin good logic!!


(ps. hey Eagler THPTHPTHPTHPTHP!)

[Rude]

Right on!

[StSanta]

Religion = bad. Basically it is a group claiming to have intimate knowledge of possibly a deity and his/her/its intentions. Through history it has been used to opress the masses.

Personal spiritualism/beliefs: probably good, depending on what they do for you.

I've become kinder to animals, if I see an earthworm on the pavement I generally move it to real earth. All thanks to skydiving - perhaps what goes around comes around. Perhaps not.

If I am wrong, at least it's a laugh that the critters I save might end up eating me .

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Truth be told I have a little bit of envy for people that find that level of grace and happiness in their lives,

And that's the bottom line for all Religion-bashers.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by StSanta
if I see an earthworm on the pavement I generally move it to real earth.

Then you are just getting yuck on your fingers for nothing. Once an earthworm has been forced out of his hole he is doomed. Countrary to popular belief the worms dont just build a new hole or whatever. They have one hole, and they die when they are removed from it.