Author Topic: Zooming in the 190D9 (Read 371 times)

R4M · « **on:** May 12, 2001, 06:59:00 PM »

Well, this is a simple issue.

Two planes, Fw190D9 and Yak9u, at 500mph IAS, 5500feet.The Yak9u is 1.5K behind the Fw190D9 The Fw190D9 pulls softly (2G constant) up to a 45 degree zoom.

Should it outzoom the Yak9u?-

I ask this because a Yak9U just cut the range from 1.5K to 1.3K in this pullout, when the speed had reduced to 350IAS only (under the level speed of the D9 at the altitude I was by then, and so, still under the Zooming speeds).

Someone said that he cut my angle. how?. I did a 2G pullout, if he pulls more, he loses more E. And I levelled the pull at 45degrees for the zoom. If he cut my angle he -**HAD**- to lose some E in the stronger pull.

have film on this. if neccessary I'll post it.

Fatty · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2001, 07:12:00 PM »

To gain on you with you ahead and a 45 degree angle, and he at 1.5k behind, he would need to pull to a smaller angle of incline, not greater (in other words less g to reach that angle in the same period of time).

R4M · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2001, 07:17:00 PM »

in the film he seems to be just following my trail. Online he said "he cut my angle"

In any case, any pullup under 2G at 500mph is going to leave him way behind (not much stick input for it), and that was not the case.

wells · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2001, 07:19:00 PM »

Both planes will zoom to the *same* height, give or take a couple of hundred feet (big deal).

Quote

Someone said that he cut my angle. how?. I did a 2G pullout, if he pulls more, he loses more E. And I levelled the pull at 45degrees for
the zoom. If he cut my angle he -**HAD**- to lose some E in the stronger pull.

Why does he have to pull more? Think about it...you are just a dot to him far away. How much does he have to pull to keep his nose on you? He pulled less than you and no matter how gentle you pull up, he will still pull less in following you. If he pulled more, you would have disappeared way below his cowl and he would have lost sight of you. But, it's not so much cutting the angle as it is how much height you can get out of a given speed.

funked · « **Reply #4 on:** May 13, 2001, 01:44:00 AM »

RAM two cars are on the highway, traveling at 30 m/s and one is 100 m behind the other. Both cars have braking decceleration capability of 5 m/sec/sec. If the lead car starts braking 1 second before the trailing car, what is the distance between them when the first car stops? Work out this example and think of how it applies to the case where a plane zooms in front of another.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-13-2001).]

Saintaw · « **Reply #5 on:** May 13, 2001, 03:50:00 AM »

Hey ! What Funked said actually makes sense! Thx Funked !

Saw
[Mass]

Vulcan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 13, 2001, 05:35:00 AM »

Funked the distance is nil coz the 2nd car is Chog driver and he decides not to brake and ram the first instead!!!

(p.s. the chog driver survives with no damage due to lag issues).

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 05-13-2001).]

R4M · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2001, 05:51:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by funked:
RAM two cars are on the highway, traveling at 30 m/s and one is 100 m behind the other. Both cars have braking decceleration capability of 5 m/sec/sec. If the lead car starts braking 1 second before the trailing car, what is the distance between them when the first car stops?

I would think that if the first is a Mercedes 300 and the second is a Volkswagen Polo, the Mercedes would last WAY way longer to get stopped because its bigger mass and inertia.

The Fw190D9 is SIGNIFICANTLY heavier than the Yak9u. I dont have a idea on the drag figures but I would say that the 190D9 was a plane with less drag than the Yak9U (maybe I'm wrong on this one).

If I pull up in a 190,1.5K away from a P47D wich zooms away starting at the same speed as me, I expect the P47 to zoom more.

The yak sterted to close the gap at 375IAS more or less ,so, still at zooming speed (over the "level" speed of the 190D9 and the Yak9u).

I used to think that the planers, when heavier and cleaner aerodiinamically, better zoomers. now, Funked, you say taht all the planes should reach the same altitude starting a zoom from the same speed?

I doubt it, but I want to listen more opinions.

funked · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »

Quote

Funked, you say taht all the planes should reach the same altitude starting a zoom from the same speed?

For the fighters in AH, which are all very similar in the grand scheme of things, yes. The altitudes should be very close. I would be surprised if there was more than 1000 feet variation from best to worst.

Dowding · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2001, 06:38:00 AM »

RAM the merc would have better brakes than the Polo.

juzz · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2001, 06:39:00 AM »

At 500mph, a 1.5k gap is about 6 seconds difference.
At 350mph, a 6 second difference is about 1k.

So if the Yak-9U was only at 1.3k when speed reduced to 350mph, it was in fact losing ground to the Fw 190D-9!

R4M · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding:
RAM the merc would have better brakes than the Polo.

huhm? yes, so?.

In a zoom the planes don't brake, they simply climb letting inertia do the rest. The most similar thing would be putting the gear in "idle" and let the cars go ahead until they stop. The MErcedes would reach farther with no doubt.

Quote

Originally posted by juzz:
At 500mph, a 1.5k gap is about 6 seconds difference.
At 350mph, a 6 second difference is about 1k.

So if the Yak-9U was only at 1.3k when speed reduced to 350mph, it was in factlosing ground to the Fw 190D-9!

Now let me get this straight, juzz. I start the zoom with him 1.5K behind me at 500mph, and when in the zoom my speed is 350mph IAS I have him 1.3K and closing on me fast...and I am winning ground? How come?

Hajo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2001, 02:39:00 PM »

If Yak was unloading g's in the verticle, and the d9 was still pulling gravity (1), the Yak could easily make up some distance being that he was weightless (0) g's and unloading while the d9 stayed at 1 off the stick.

hajo

R4M · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hajo:
If Yak was unloading g's in the verticle, and the d9 was still pulling gravity (1), the Yak could easily make up some distance being that he was weightless (0) g's and unloading while the d9 stayed at 1 off the stick.

hajo

unloading? 0g?

I will tell you one thing, this guy could not get me in a scissoring, and I had my elevator damaged. I doubt he knows what a 0g move is

in any case the film shows pretty straight trails for him. seems that he put autopilot in the 45degree zoom as me.

BlauK · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2001, 04:14:00 AM »

RAM,

Since you began zooming before him, your speed will also be slower in a given point of time than his. If you compare the points in altitude, then his spedd could be same as yours when you WERE at his current altitude. Of course he is gaining on you in term so distance wne you both climb. In term of time between your locations he is NOT gaining.

This same thing happens in car races when it looks like the trailing car is gaining the leader in a corner. After the corner the leader pulls away again.

If you had levelled gently and the dived, and had he followed the samepath, you would have pulled away from him again.

In any case 0.2k is very little lost distance. That is why juzz is quite right about saying yak was losing ground. The starting margin just was not big enough for you. In addition he was able to cut a shorter line with less G:s pulled than you.

Exaggerated side view (a=you, b=him):

------------------
BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34

[This message has been edited by BlauK (edited 05-14-2001).]