Author Topic: Walter Nowotny's grave (Read 3778 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #45 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:03:26 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
I was trying to point out the subjectivity of the connotations that are inextricably linked with the words 'traitor' and 'deserter' and also trying to seek clarification as what cause such a person would be a 'traitor' or 'deserter' to.

You can't escape the fact that Nazism was the cause to be propagated by continued participation on the Axis side. I'm sorry if that causes you offence.

No, that is where you got it wrong. It is easy to objectively define what a "deserter" and "traitor" is.

You on the other hand are drifting into some very blurred "since the nation was fighting for the wrong reasons, he should have deserted, because that would have been right"-discussion.

Hortlund · « **Reply #46 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:08:59 AM »

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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Only to Nazis and likeminded groups.

To modern day Germans, chances are he would of been idolized had he gone allied and fought against the Nazi Wehrmacht.

Lest we forget, modern day Germans hate everything Nazi-esque.
-SW

Nope, by definition it would have made him a deserter and a traitor. Read the dictionay quotes I posted.

As for your fantasies about what modern day Germans would have said or thought or done...lets just agree that you are guessing wildly here and leave it at that shall we?

There are numerous examples of Germans who were "idolized" after ww2 despite the fact that they fought in ww2 (Hartmann, Kretschmer, Galland, to name a few off the top of my head). There are also numerous examples of Germans who deserted in ww2 and were shunned after the war (Paulus would be a good example)

davidpt40 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:09:46 AM »

At the very least Nowotny fought for the Nazis. He may very well have been a Nazi himself. Everything he fought for was evil. On top of that, good men died at his hands. But hes dead now and it doesn't matter. Cause once your dead- thats it.

Dowding · « **Reply #48 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:10:38 AM »

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No, that is where you got it wrong. It is easy to objectively define what a "deserter" and "traitor" is.

No, that is where you have it wrong. Note that I said "...subjectivity of the connotations..." and not "...subjectivity of the definitions...".

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You on the other hand are drifting into some very blurred "since the nation was fighting for the wrong reasons, he should have deserted, because that would have been right"-discussion.

It was you who said: "Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.". Your tone implies disgrace by such an action - i.e. he shouldn't have deserted, because that would have been wrong.

To which I responded that that would depend from which POV you were looking. I was merely continuing the discussion.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #49 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:16:24 AM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nope, by definition it would have made him a deserter and a traitor. Read the dictionay quotes I posted.

Had he never signed up for the LuftWaffe, following the invasion of Poland and left for allied terroritory, your entire dictionary argument is moot.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
As for your fantasies about what modern day Germans would have said or thought or done...lets just agree that you are guessing wildly here and leave it at that shall we?

Right, I guess there's a reason that a click of the heel and a flick of the wrist will get you beat down in Germany, or that post-WW2 vets wearing medals with swastikas on them had them ripped from their throats and almost beat by mobs of angry civilians. Nevertheless, I am not talking of just after WW2, I am talking about today. That's what modern means, today, and I'd be interested to see how many Germans you could get to agree with you about YOUR fantasies of the 3rd Reich.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
There are numerous examples of Germans who were "idolized" after ww2 despite the fact that they fought in ww2 (Hartmann, Kretschmer, Galland, to name a few off the top of my head). There are also numerous examples of Germans who deserted in ww2 and were shunned after the war (Paulus would be a good example)

Back up here, I said "modern day". Lets find some modern day examples, modern day does not mean just after the fall of the 3rd Reich or the occupation of Germany. It means after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
-SW

straffo · « **Reply #50 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:23:49 AM »

Paulus deserted ?

Hortlund · « **Reply #51 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:27:47 AM »

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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Had he never signed up for the LuftWaffe, following the invasion of Poland and left for allied terroritory, your entire dictionary argument is moot.

[/b]
Brilliant argument...

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...about YOUR fantasies of the 3rd Reich.

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...which are...?

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Back up here, I said "modern day". Lets find some modern day examples, modern day does not mean just after the fall of the 3rd Reich or the occupation of Germany. It means after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Oh, excuse me for not knowing that you had some own secret definition of "modern day" ...soo after the Berlin wall qualifies as modern then?

Fine, first give me one example of any ww2-type of guy on any side that is idolized in modern day Germany so I know what you mean when you say that.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #52 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:37:57 AM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund

Brilliant argument...

That was my whole argument. Other people were going based on him joining the LuftWaffe, then deserting. We all know, he would of never fought for the allies had he been flying with the LuftWaffe. Kind of a common sense thing here.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
...which are...?

That Nazis are heros.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Oh, excuse me for not knowing that you had some own secret definition of "modern day" ...soo after the Berlin wall qualifies as modern then?

My "secret" definition? Well, since you are so good with definitions... why did you not bother looking up what "modern" means? And what "day" means?

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Fine, first give me one example of any ww2-type of guy on any side that is idolized in modern day Germany so I know what you mean when you say that.

Why? You are trying to prove Nazi pilots that played the part of air cover for an aggressive regime conquering lands were heros to their neighboring countries that they were now invading.

Idolization is equivelant to hero worship, how many Nazis are considered heros in modern day Germany?
-SW

Hortlund · « **Reply #53 on:** July 22, 2003, 07:50:42 AM »

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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
That was my whole argument. Other people were going based on him joining the LuftWaffe, then deserting. We all know, he would of never fought for the allies had he been flying with the LuftWaffe. Kind of a common sense thing here.

[/b]
Your whole argument was "if he hadnt joined the LW he would not have been a deserter if he had joined the allies"?

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That Nazis are heros.

[/b]
Lets see the quote where I say that then.

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My "secret" definition? Well, since you are so good with definitions... why did you not bother looking up what "modern" means? And what "day" means?

[/b]
Yes, and if I look that up in a dictionary there will be an entry along the lines of "modern day=time period occurring after the fall of the Berlin wall"?

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Why? You are trying to prove Nazi pilots that played the part of air cover for an aggressive regime conquering lands were heros to their neighboring countries that they were now invading.

[/b]
Uh..I am? Lets see where I say that then...can you show me the quote please?

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Idolization is equivelant to hero worship, how many Nazis are considered heros in modern day Germany?
-SW

But I still dont understand what you mean. Hero worship and idolization is the same thing? Not neccesarily, but ok, lets take hero worship then. Please give me an example of any person from any nation in ww2 that is idolized or "hero worshiped" TODAY in Germany.

Pooh21 · « **Reply #54 on:** July 22, 2003, 08:01:06 AM »

Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.

straffo · « **Reply #55 on:** July 22, 2003, 08:02:36 AM »

It depend of the definition of hero you use :

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In Greek Literature, a hero:
[list=1]
usually comes from a royal birth
must perform an extraordinary feat
does not have to be of good moral character
must suffer physically
must die in an unusual way
not part of the community until death
[/list=1]
Usually, a Greek Hero is worshipped at their tomb site.

Except 4 I don't see what apply to Nowotny and he was not Greek either

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American Heritage Dictionary
[list=1]
In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.*
The principal male character in novel, poem, or dramatic presentation. See Usage Note at heroine.**
[/list=1]

sense 3 perhaps ?

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #56 on:** July 22, 2003, 08:14:07 AM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund

Your whole argument was "if he hadnt joined the LW he would not have been a deserter if he had joined the allies"?

Yes.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Lets see the quote where I say that then.

I can't quote this whole thread. You repeatedly stated that Nowotny was a hero. He was a Nazi. 2+2=4.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Yes, and if I look that up in a dictionary there will be an entry along the lines of "modern day=time period occurring after the fall of the Berlin wall"?"?

You are as thick as molasses, and just as slow. Modern is pertaining to present and/or recent time. Past 10 to 20 years is present/recent time. The closer to the present day you get, the better, hence "after the fall of the Berlin Wall". I gave you a good reference point in time to begin your search, I feel 20 years is a good time span to find the majority in Germany worshipping some Nazis for what they did during WWII. Stretching beyond that, and you go too far into the past, and therefore, are not in the present time, or "modern day".

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Uh..I am? Lets see where I say that then...can you show me the quote please?

You said Animal was wrong in Point #3. Without clarification beyond the single word you placed in response, it appears as though you believe Austria appreciates Nowotny as a hero for flying for the LuftWaffe in Nazi Germany's aggressive conquest to reunite Europe under the Nazi party and destroy all those who stand in their way, and are determined to be of lesser breeds by Hitler.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
But I still dont understand what you mean. Hero worship and idolization is the same thing? Not neccesarily, but ok, lets take hero worship then. Please give me an example of any person from any nation in ww2 that is idolized or "hero worshiped" TODAY in Germany.

Why? I don't understand why I must show you someone from WWII idolized by Germans today. I call you out on proving a WW2 Nazi is a hero in Germany today, and then you request I do it first, but it can be anyone hiding it under the guise of trying to find out what I mean?

"any person who has hoeroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."

Use that definition to find a WW2 Nazi that is regarded as a hero today in Germany. The only thing he would be model or ideal in, would be that of Nazism. So, in the eyes of Nazis, he would be a hero, which I said way back in my first post.
-SW

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #57 on:** July 22, 2003, 08:32:04 AM »

Lets put this whole Nowotny thing in "modern" American PC terms...

Is George Washington a hero? I dont think so, he owned slaves - therefore he is an unamerican racist and not a hero in modern times. Obviously! Lets rename the state and the city and move him to paupers grave!

You see thats all there is to it - and surely slavery and racism are very little differnt than what the nazis did - not to mention george washington was a traitor to his king and homeland...

PC BS sucks there is now way to justify it!

I propose we rename Washington state after some (preferably gender ambiguos as was some the case in superior native american cultures) indian chief or Malcom X. The capita city should be blown up as it is a sugn of opression worldwide. It should be moved to Berkeley CA, though that city must also me renamed as Berkeley was an evil Irish catholic missionary who forced Christianty on native americans....

Dowding · « **Reply #58 on:** July 22, 2003, 08:49:37 AM »

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Lets put this whole Nowotny thing in "modern" American PC terms...

Waaaah! I'm an oppressed American white man. Waaaah! Martin Luther King never knew the meaning of the word 'oppression' - he never walked a mile in my Nikes. Why does the world continue to beat me up!?

In conclusion....waaah!

I perfectly understand your emotional turmoil Grunherz and what you say brings a tear to my eye.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #59 on:** July 22, 2003, 09:05:58 AM »

Screw you Dowding!

I merely compared this to something that happends quite often inb an american context that is very a controverrsial and debated topic in the stetes and somewhat comporable to this nowotny thing and yoiu feel you you have to make fun of me and try put up some opressed white man straw man argument - somethinh I never brought up or alluded to in my post...

So again screw you - I'll take it you have no argument - plus I think such enrmous deliberate alteration of my post in your "quote" is in bad taste... Please remove it.