Heil Intolerance

[capt. apathy]

So a guy, like Curval describes, who devotes his life to helping others is condemned to share eternity with mass murderers and Budweiser drinkers because of where he put his nob on an evening?

not directly,  it's your belief in, and a relationship with god that saves you from hell, not your activities.  continuing this kind of behavior would tend to cause problems in your relationship with god.  however an honest effort to avoid this behavior, and a genuine plea for forgiveness would absolve you of the debt.

and for those of you for whom the Bible has been misquoted.  nowhere does it say those who lead a good life, and are kind to others get to go to heaven.

to do some heavy para-phrasing. it says that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and salvation.  the hook is that you are supose to apriciate the gift so much that you feel a debt to try to live by gods laws (I do I'm hooked), and look out for others as god looks out for you.

so if curvals friend lived a great life and did many good things but refused to except god, (and with the true exceptance the obligation to live as he wants comes automaticly)then no he wouldn't get in.

however if he excepted Christ and asked for help with this problem in his life he would.

[Curval]

Saur...I wonder how many gay people you know but have no idea that they are gay.  I'm willing to bet there are a few.  When/if you find that out about someone you really care about will that line you draw stay in place?

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

My mom died when I was 13, and I knew her for fewer years than that. My dad raised me and my sister single handedly.

He dated a few women, but I never really talked to them beyond what I did in school.

A mother figure isn't necessary once the child is beyond a certain age... unless of course you want to learn fashion or how to match your clothes... then at that point, I fail to see how a gay parent would fail in that aspect.
-SW

[capt. apathy]

Curval, if my kid robbed a bank I'd still love him.  I'd have real problems with his behavior but it wouldn't change how I feel about him.

same thing if he was gay.  I'd still love him, it wouldn't change how I feel about him.  however I wouldn't be suportive of imoral actions.  he wouldn't be bringing dates to my house for family dinners.  he damn sure wouldn't be sharing a room under my roof (this, wouldn't be a problem with visiting married children and their spouse).  I also wouldn't allow my kids to chare a room with someone in an adulterous straight relationship .

[Rutilant]

I gritted my teeth and read through this..

#1. Gays don't affect me directly, so i don't care.

#2. Morality as used in here is a shorter version of saying "GOD SAYS IT'S WRONG! TEH GOD IS TEH MASTAH!"

I don't believe in god, but i don't go around telling people god doesnt exist - i keep it to myself. I don't care about that either, unless someone tells me, for whatever reason, that i'm "going to burn in hell", or if they try to 'convince' me i'm wrong and must repent.. Feh.

#3. Why bother? As every issue that's come and gone, homosexuality will eventually be accepted as normal, as have many other formerly unaccepted.. things.




PS - i'm not reading this thread any more.

[Curval]

I had to think a while before responding to that Capt.  The reason is because you have raised the "what if my child turned out to be gay" question.

I would also be feeling the same way you would about dates, sleeping in the same room etc. if one, or heaven forbid all my children, is gay. That is if I were to be 100% honest.

Having said that though, I think that it would not be too much to suggest that there would be a chance that my sons and I could have some kind of normal relationship if that were the case.  I fear the same would not be the case for you.

Clearly you would, based on what you have said here, view your gay son's sexual activity as immoral.  He would have a "problem" and it would be your moral obligation to cure him of his affliction.  Your son, on the other hand, would have made a lifestyle choice, consciously against the wishes of his father.

I see a recipe for disaster.

In my case I have at least been exposed to one example of my own hypocricy in feeling that gay people are an abhoration.  Maybe there is a chance that I could deal with it...but then again..maybe not.  I don't know.

[Torque]

Originally posted by Dowding
"And go forth... hunt out the man who dare lay with another man or woman with another woman in glorious view of God's naked eye. But on the subject of priests who rape little boys... let us not be too intolerant. Let us turn a blinded eye."

You forgot the part about treating women (the givers off life) not as equals.

Homosexual relationships is a common occurence in all top mammals for those ranting about mother nature and all.

Go tell the Spartans!!!!

[capt. apathy]

curval, I'm no analist but I sugest that you have just uncovered your true opinion on the subject.  that you know deep down this activity is wrong and would be disturbed and concerned if you found out your children where participating in it.

may of us are 'programed' with the default answers of what right thinking, intellegent people are suposed to believe.  but when you cut away the political platforms and other agendas you can see that you (and most others ) know in their hearts this behavior is wrong.  

basicly we can say it as ok as long as it's these hypothetical other peoples children.  but when the very behavior shows up in our own kids we have to face the fact that it makes us uncomfortable, and it makes us uncomfortable because it is wrong.

and I too believe I could have as normal a a relationship with my son as possable. and am curiouse why you think I would have a harder time with it than you.  I think the fact that I'm a little more aware of how I feel on the subject might even be a help.  for me my position is clear and I'd just have to work out how it effects the relationship between me and him.  you'd have all of that plus,  having to figure out your true feelings on the subject.  I see that as giving me a bit of a head start.

edit-  also you would have the extra roadblock of your son, finding resentmant and disaproval in a behavior that you had so far presented as ok.  sorta changing the rules on him without warning.  denying the truth about how you really feel is rarely healthy for anyone involved.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
curval, I'm no analist

Pun intended?  

[Curval]

lol Funked....

Capt. I disagree.  If you think that you would have a better relationship with a gay son because your are honest and firm in your opinion that he is immoral and is risking eternal damnation by involving himself in such a lifestyle then I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell ya.  

Not understanding something does not automatically make it wrong.

I would really just rather not have to deal with it...but, if it happens at least I won't be pre-programmed into thinking one way about it.

[Staga]

Originally posted by Yeager
I support keeping marriage an act of faith and love between a man and a woman.  

I dont care if two people of the same sex want to be lawfully united, or partnered...whatever.  But I want to keep lawful marriage traditional.

I agree.
Anyway someone said "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
World is a pretty chitty place and if someone finds his/her love from someone with same gender then who are we to judge them?

[capt. apathy]

LOL, spelling is not my strong point.

curval,  while I have no sort of degree in child development, after 18 years, I have learned that one of the major positive things for raising children is consistency.

clear cut and consistent definitions of exactly what right and wrong are, combined with the knowledge that while there are consequences and punishments for wrong behavior these will not mean my love for them will be any less.

I have also learned that about the only thing worse than BS'n your kids are BS'n yourself and having your kids call you on it.

hypothetically,
how bitter do you suppose your kid would be if all his life you told him homosexuality is normal and completely ok.  then he surprises you by bringing his boyfriend home to meet you (never bothered to mentioned he was gay, no big deal after all) and you get all weirded out and uncomfortable around him and the BF while you reevaluate your convictions and decide how to handle it.

if my kid where to spring something like that on me I'm fairly confident he would know exactly what to expect.  (disapproval, point out it is wrong, suggest he take some time out and pray about it for awhile, followed with a hug, reassurance that I still loved him, and a basic outline of how I see this effecting the relationship between me and him [see above post])

my kid knows right from wrong and how I feel about it,  he also knows that (much like god loves us) I love him and I'm willing to deal with and work through any obstacle between us, but I wont condone or pretend to approve of deviant or immoral behavior

[midnight Target]

Too bad.

Cause IF your kid is gay it's because he has no choice in the matter, and I would hope that he would be able to share that part of himself with you without recrimination. Because he HAS NO CHOICE.

[capt. apathy]

I strongly doubt the whole 'born gay' thing but as I said in a previous post not being gay I can't say.  but again that would be the only part that one would 'have no choice' in.  you do have a choice as to if you put feelings into actions.  

so even if I concede that some people might be born with gay feelings, they make a conscious decision to comit immoral acts.

and again with the adultery comparison.  being a man I am born with feelings and urges for good looking women.  if I where to surender my morality to these feelings and act on them, that would be immoral.  

we all have various urges and feelings to do things that are not moral.  most try supress them and do the right thing,  some think the boundries should not apply to the things that they want to do.

[midnight Target]

So you woud wish a life without love on your child. Unbelievable.