Author Topic: Heil Intolerance  (Read 11758 times)

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #405 on: August 06, 2003, 08:56:57 PM »
Because, Apathy, if the scriptures are indisputable fact then only one of the thousands of denominations could be right.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #406 on: August 06, 2003, 09:02:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
hblair..you are just being argumentative.

I was TOLD by Rude...and YOU...that the reference to homosexuality being immoral and a sin in the New Testament was in Romans Chapter one.  I posted the King James Version of Romans chapter one and assumed it was in 1:24 based on a quick read.  

I asked Sabre...I'm asking you....WHERE IS IT?

....and if was Paul's intentions to get all Christians on the same page he did a losy job.

...and we HAVE thosands of denominations, interpretations and views on the bible.

I'm trying hard to understand your point...or are you just trying to yank my chain?

As far as masterbation goes...based on experience I am a frigging expert.  I make no apologies and I'm not at all embarassed to admit it.

There are two types of men in this world...bananas and liars.  Which are you?;)


Okay, now I'm beginning to suspect you're yanking my chain, Curval.  Re-read your last couple of exchanges with me.  You seem to have used the term masturbation when you meant homosexual, or vice versa.  You said:

Quote
I specifically stated Rom 1:24 as being the reference to masterbation.


I said:

Quote
I've re-read Romans 1:24, and have to say, this doesn't look like a reference to masturbation.


Yes, Roman's 1 clearly describes homosexual behavrior (clear enough?) as immoral (i.e. a sin in God's eyes).  It does not mention masturbation...as I've said.  As for interpretation, Roman's 1 seems pretty clear.  I simply read it too fast the first time (been a while since I'd looked at it).  I must admit, I'm far from a bible scholar.

But again, we digress.  Why should same-sex couples get the benefits a man-woman marriage gets?  What benefit would it provide to society that outweighs the cost to society?
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #407 on: August 06, 2003, 09:05:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty
Because, Apathy, if the scriptures are indisputable fact then only one of the thousands of denominations could be right.


The only way to really be sure that you're in the right church is to start your own church based on what you know to be the truth because you certainly aren't going to find an exact match in any existing church...

Food for thought.

eskimo

Offline Charon

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« Reply #408 on: August 06, 2003, 09:07:44 PM »
It's in cases like this that I look to Jack Chick for guidance.

The Gay Blade

Of course, being gay to an Protestant evangelical of his tilt is almost as bad as being a Catholic:

Are Roman Catholics Christians?
Last Rites
Holocaust

or playing Dungeons and Dragons
 Dark Dungeons

on Halloween :)
The Trick

Charon

Offline Curval

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« Reply #409 on: August 06, 2003, 09:17:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Okay, now I'm beginning to suspect you're yanking my chain, Curval.  Re-read your last couple of exchanges with me.  You seem to have used the term masturbation when you meant homosexual, or vice versa.  You said:



I said:



Yes, Roman's 1 clearly describes homosexual behavrior (clear enough?) as immoral (i.e. a sin in God's eyes).  It does not mention masturbation...as I've said.  As for interpretation, Roman's 1 seems pretty clear.  I simply read it too fast the first time (been a while since I'd looked at it).  I must admit, I'm far from a bible scholar.

But again, we digress.  Why should same-sex couples get the benefits a man-woman marriage gets?  What benefit would it provide to society that outweighs the cost to society?


Your right..sorry.  lol..I confused myself.  Mute point though as you say.

Why?  Why not?  Interesting you say cost.  Please clarify.  

As soon as you say "moral cost" we are back to square one in this debate.

I will say "moral" according to YOU.

If, on the other hand you can give me a financial cost analysis we just might have something to talk about that isn't just beating the same dead horse.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 09:21:37 PM by Curval »
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Charon

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« Reply #410 on: August 06, 2003, 09:19:31 PM »
Quote
Why should same-sex couples get the benefits a man-woman marriage gets? What benefit would it provide to society that outweighs the cost to society?


The exact same benefits that a marriage ceramony provides heterosexual couples who never intend to have childern. The right not to be excluded from a dying partner's deathbed by the family, or to have a say in life support decisions for example. Clearer property rights. Clearer custody rights with adopted children (yeah, I know, don't let a gay couple adopt an otherwise unwanted child in the first place). The right to express a personal committment to the other person that goes beyond a few private words.

Nobody's saying your church has to allow gay marriages, but that's not good enough I suppose. Why allow people to marry who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior?

Charon
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 09:35:08 PM by Charon »

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #411 on: August 06, 2003, 10:17:19 PM »
Quote
The only way to really be sure that you're in the right church is to start your own church based on what you know to be the truth because you certainly aren't going to find an exact match in any existing church...

Food for thought.


a good point actually.  and in most of the churches I've attended there has been at least one or two issues that I don't agree with.  usually very trivial IMO (such as the 'official' conservitive baptist idea that dancing is somehow wrong.  I don't dance [due not to faith but a lack of coordination] but I've seen nothing in the scriptures that really suports that opinion).  

however i try to focus more on the major issues and the things that we agree on when atending a church.  it's refreshing, in these times where bashing Christian is the 'in' thing, to spend some time with people who believe.

Quote
Considering 62 Episcopal Bishops OK'd it, I'd say you're wrong. Unless you think you know their faith better than they do?

SOB


well I don't supose I'll be attending an Episcopal chaurch any time soon.  I don't think it's a minor disagreement when they make a man a bishop who was quoted as saying that 'just because something goes against scripture doesn't make it wrong'

of the 2 issues I would have less trouble with the man being gay than the belief that the scriptures aren't truth.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #412 on: August 06, 2003, 10:33:49 PM »
Quote
If, on the other hand you can give me a financial cost analysis we just might have something to talk about that isn't just beating the same dead horse.


health insurance costs,  the idea of providing health care for the spouse of an employee is to better society by allowing someone to stay home and raise children and still be covered by health insurance.

once you have gay marriages employers will be required to aknowledge these 'marriages' even if they find them moraly wrong.  I suspect many will stop providing healthcare for dependants to avoid the issue.  or they could just stop providing it at all.  even if they don't have a moral problem with it the increased financial cost might just make it to expensive to continue.

also, since it's nobodys bussiness what goes on (or not) in a married couples bed, whats to stop friends or roommates from setting up'marriages' (with a nice pre-nup to assure the other person can't take you financially) to get tax benifits or healthcare for the uninsured person.

if enough people do this they will have to raise everyones taxes to compensate.  effectively doing away with the lower rate for maried couples,  making it financially harder on children.

historicaly gay relationships have been less stable (there have been exceptions),  plus we get the ones that where designed to be temporary (the ones described in the last 2 paragraphs). sorting out these break-ups would further load down our courts.

Offline hblair

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« Reply #413 on: August 06, 2003, 11:40:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
hblair..you are just being argumentative.

I was TOLD by Rude...and YOU...that the reference to homosexuality being immoral and a sin in the New Testament was in Romans Chapter one.  I posted the King James Version of Romans chapter one and assumed it was in 1:24 based on a quick read.  

I asked Sabre...I'm asking you....WHERE IS IT?


Verses 26 and 27 are more clear.


Quote
Originally posted by Curval
....and if was Paul's intentions to get all Christians on the same page he did a losy job.


Paul died about two thousand years ago. In order for the church today to learn from him, they have to read his epistles in the NT.

Quote
Originally posted by Curval
...and we HAVE thosands of denominations, interpretations and views on the bible.


and where did they come from? The more time passes since the time of Jesus, the further out in left field denominations become. Nowadays pretty much whatever floats your boat is ok with most proclaimed christians. but why is that? In the day of the early church it was all so clear. All this is recorded in the bible, no mention of divisions or denominations being ok. Matter of fact paul was big time against any division in the church. My point is this, if you follow the bibles teaching on what the church is supposed to be, then compare it to what you see today for the most part, they are two different animals.


Quote
Originally posted by Curval
There are two types of men in this world...bananas and liars.  Which are you?;)

I'm sometimes a lying banana :o

Offline SOB

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« Reply #414 on: August 07, 2003, 12:24:06 AM »
health insurance costs,  the idea of providing health care for the spouse of an employee is to better society by allowing someone to stay home and raise children and still be covered by health insurance.

And what of couples with no children?  Should they not recieve spousal health benefits?  This was just for the folks who chose to take on the financial responsibility of having a child?

once you have gay marriages employers will be required to aknowledge these 'marriages' even if they find them moraly wrong.  I suspect many will stop providing healthcare for dependants to avoid the issue.  or they could just stop providing it at all.  even if they don't have a moral problem with it the increased financial cost might just make it to expensive to continue.

Yeah, if employers choose to provide health coverage for their employees, they'll have to extend it to anyone lawfully married.  I fail to see how or why this is a bad thing.  Or don't gays deserve health care either?  Hey, maybe we could just allow employers to exclude gays/blacks/asian/whatever from their health plans if they don't like who they are or what they do at home.  Surely, this would save employers billions nationwide!  Fortunately, not all employers are so bigoted that they would stop providing health care altogether rather than providing it to gays who work for them and their spouses.  My employer is one of them...they currently extend health benefits to domestic partners, hetero or homo.

also, since it's nobodys bussiness what goes on (or not) in a married couples bed, whats to stop friends or roommates from setting up'marriages' (with a nice pre-nup to assure the other person can't take you financially) to get tax benifits or healthcare for the uninsured person.

The same thing that's stopping men and women friends from getting married for tax and healthcare benefits.  Some might, most won't...why would it be any different?

if enough people do this they will have to raise everyones taxes to compensate.  effectively doing away with the lower rate for maried couples,  making it financially harder on children.

Last I checked, gay people pay taxes too.  They don't deserve the same tax benefits that you do?  Frankly, I find it hard to understand why my tax dollars are going to support your kid.  It was your choice to have a kid afterall, and I don't remember you asking me if it was OK.

historicaly gay relationships have been less stable (there have been exceptions),  plus we get the ones that where designed to be temporary (the ones described in the last 2 paragraphs). sorting out these break-ups would further load down our courts.

Historically (in the US...anything beyond that is irrelevant), being openly gay meant getting openly ridiculed and possibly beaten.  Probably kind of hard to maintain a relationship with the constant need to keep it in the closet and having everyone around you tell you that studmuffins are sick deviants that are going to hell.  As for adding a burden to our courts?  That's great...shall we make that they deciding factor in any issue facing this country henceforth?


SOB
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Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #415 on: August 07, 2003, 04:34:07 AM »
Sundown in the Paris of the prairies
Wheat Kings have all their treasures barried
All you hear are the rusty breezes
Hanging around the weather vane Jesus

In a zippo lighter you see the killer's face
Maybe it's someone standing in the killers place
Twenty Years for nothing well that nothing new
Besides no one is interested in what you didn't do
Wheat Kings and pretty things,
Lets just see what the morning brings

There's a dream he dreams where the high school is dead and stark
It's a museum and we're al locked up and after dark up in it and after dark
Where the walls are lined all yellow gray and sinister
Hung with pictures of our parents prime ministers
Wheat Kings and pretty things,
Lets just see what the tomorrow brings

Late breaking story on the CBC,
A nation whispers "we always know he'd go free"
They add "you can't be fond of living in the past,
Cause if you are then there is no way you are going to last"
Wheat Kings and pretty things,
Lets just see what the morning brings
Wheat Kings and pretty things,
Thats what the morning brings

Wheat Kings - Tragically Hip

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #416 on: August 07, 2003, 06:19:12 AM »
Christ this is too funny to be real.

Now it's because it would bog down the courts?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #417 on: August 07, 2003, 07:01:53 AM »
So, do you guys think
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #418 on: August 07, 2003, 07:02:26 AM »
that this thread will
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #419 on: August 07, 2003, 07:03:06 AM »
make it to 500 or not?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!