Author Topic: The Void between Machine guns and cannons. (Read 9943 times)

F4UDOA · « **on:** August 01, 2003, 11:32:19 AM »

I hate to beat a rotting carcus but...

I was looking at the AH kill stats last night and noticing how good the F4U-1 is in AH. Kind of happy actually that an aircraft with the attributes of 1943 Marine fighter meant to kills Zekes could do well in an arena full of turn fighters and late war monsters.

Then for some reason I decided to look at the stats for the F4U-1C. OMG!! That thing is killing NIK2's and La7's at a 2 to 1 ratio. You would think that aircraft was the penultimate fighting machine of the 20th century.

Then I noticed that while the F4U-1 series had difficulty with the same aircraft that the F4U-1C was dominating. So I tried to figure out why? And the fact it the the F4U-1 holds just about every card there is except cannons.

So what gives? Were cannon armed fighters really that much more dominate in WW2 than MG armed ones? No, so why are two A/C with such similar attributes so different in the MA? Absolutely not, in fact the NIK2, F4U-1C, FW190A8 and many other A/C with heavy gun packages were not nearly as succesfull in shooting down enemy fighter A/C as there MG counter parts. Why would the P-51 with 4 20mils be switched to 4 .50cal machines guns as a P-51B?

I still believe that perking the F4U-1C was a work around forced by the community because no reasonable explanation could be found for the huge difference in AH between cannon and MG hits.

In fact looking at AHT I found where it shows the weight of fire per second as being very slightly in favor of the cannon armed A/C but not by much. 9.54lbs in the 6 .50 cal config and 11.60lbs for the 4 20mill config.

My solution is this since I already know what the community response will be. The answer is the cannon rounds are HE and explode. This is true, and while the explosive force done by these rounds is easily calculated the damage done by them is completely subjective.

So my request to HTC is reduce the catostrophic nature of cannons in AH. I don't mean parity because they(mg's and cannon) are not equal. But there can be no question that cannons in AH are rendering void the work being done to achieve correct FM's.

Let the pilot decide the outcome. End the "snap shot" in AH

Furball · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2003, 12:53:10 PM »

F4U-1C isnt dominant because of its guns. Its because it is flown by better pilots (perk plane) and it is used as a vulchmobile.

brady · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:24:26 PM »

It's the cannon's, those Hispanos are very deadly any 4 Gun Hispano plane is a killing Machine, the Huricane & Typhone are extreamly deadly, It is also the huge ammo load the C caries that helps, and as you say the stats are effected because of it's use as a vulch machine.

The curent Gun model favors The 50 cal and the Hispano, thruth be know they othe cannons in the game are typicaly underrated relative to their historical effectivenss, as are other guns which used a chemical engery componet, the MG 131, the Breda 12.7 and the MG FF and Type 99 MK I for example, but all of this is realy an argument almsot about what once was, since this is all changing in AH2, the gun model is being changed.

4510 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:26:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furball
F4U-1C isnt dominant because of its guns. Its because it is flown by better pilots (perk plane) and it is used as a vulchmobile.

Or one might say.. that it is flown more conservatively.. because it cost's perks if you lose it.

The C-Hogs cannon's DO kick like a mule tho!

4510 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:28:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by brady

The curent Gun model favors The 50 cal and the Hispano, thruth be know they othe cannons in the game are typicaly underrated relative to their historical effectivenss, as are other guns which used a chemical engery componet, the MG 131, the Breda 12.7 and the MG FF and Type 99 MK I for example, but all of this is realy an argument almsot about what once was, since this is all changing in AH2, the gun model is being changed.

Brady,

Are you saying that they are going to add a little more lethality to the German guns! THERE IS A GOD!

Rutilant · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:35:15 PM »

I can't recal it saying anywhere that the gun models are being changed.

Only the terrain, planes are being remodeled, the FM as well.. not the gun models.

AND HOPEFULLY THE GV DAMAGE MODEL!

Edit: oh yeah, the graphics engine too.. But that really isnt a model..

F4UDOA · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:48:28 PM »

Flown more conservatively?

EL WRONGO!!

The F4U-1C has over 7,000 kills this past tour.

That is more than the F4U-1. They are very common and used in furballs and B&Z alike.

You could use that arguement for the 262 or Tempest but no way the C-Hog.

By the way most WW2 pilots never even fired their guns unless they wee within 150yards. And there are many reports of aircraft on both sides coming back with up to 40 cannon hits and surviving. It is not even within the realm of possibilty that this could happen in AH currently.

Maybe this will be corrected with a new damage model but the current model is not realistic in the differance between what makes or does not make a successful fighter aircraft.

Puck · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:11:08 PM »

Where is the stats page? I've lost it over the months.

I've pretty much flown the F4U-1 this tour. Didn't do too bad in it; particularly against the P51s. La7s still give me some problems, but almost every one that's killed me has done so by running me down; I'm not very good at knife-fighting a corsair yet.

I also can't hit squat with cannon. Well. This last week I've been flying the CT to avoid the Pizza, and I can kill things in the N1K2 now. I just put the muzzle of the cannon up against the aircraft in question before I pull the trigger...

Karnak · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:26:08 PM »

F4UDOA,

Wasn't it the US Navy that concluded that one Hispano Mk II / M2 20mm cannon was the eqivilent of three Browning .50 cals?

brady · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:30:22 PM »

Ya it's crazy being able to nail planes at 1200 with 50cal's and Hispanos, I got two Kills with the P47 on Gerges at 1000 in the CT daybefore yesterday, not that this is unushual mind you. I argee that presently it is a bit far feteched and realy favors those guns with the better balisitcs and tends to degrade those with more reliance on the chemical engery component, a clear example of this is the differance between the efectivenss of the Type 99 MK I and the Type 99 MK II cannons which fired the same prodegctile, see this link:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=787074#post787074

A Quote from Tony's sight from the above mentioned thread:

"if the projectile is primarily relying on HE blast or incendiary effect, the velocity with which it strikes the target is almost immaterial. Provided that it hits with sufficient force to penetrate the skin and activate the fuze, the damage inflicted will remain constant. "

This effect is not I beleave represented in AH to any apricable degree which is why the Hispano and the 50cal are so effective in the game.

I do beleave they are changing the Gun model Rutalient, I recall seeing it mentioned on the AHII forum.

hitech · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:34:45 PM »

You are incorect brady we do not have plans to change the balistic model.

And incase you disn't notice you and F4U are arguing the oposit side of things he thinks cannons are favored you think 50s are farvored.

HiTech

brady · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:38:52 PM »

O, I am sry I thought it was mentioned that they were remodeled. thanks for clearing that up.

I think that the chemical engery reliant weapons are diminished in ther effectivenss out of historical proportion, that is the slower MV weapons that fire HE rounds, it is not nescessarly a 50 cal thing.

This from above:

"if the projectile is primarily relying on HE blast or incendiary effect, the velocity with which it strikes the target is almost immaterial. Provided that it hits with sufficient force to penetrate the skin and activate the fuze, the damage inflicted will remain constant. "

This effect is not I beleave represented in AH to any apricable degree which is why the Hispano and the 50cal are so effective in the game.

This would be in keeping twith the Typee 99 isue mentioed above.

Puck · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2003, 02:41:21 PM »

Completely off topic (my apologies, F4U), but I think Brady *IS* HiTech. Do we know anyone else who can squeeze so many typos into such a short post?

By the way, my dad harmonized his guns out to 1000 yards, and they were known to make hits out that far on (relativly) stationary targets. Against a maneuvering target things were much different. He was in the Emerson nose turret on B24s.

I've found this to be reasonably well duplicated in AH. Against a straight and level (or at least steady) target I can get occasional pings from 1k to 1.2k yards. Short of a lucky pilot hit, or a hit on something already damaged, I only try this to get the con turning.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

GScholz · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2003, 03:36:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
You are incorect brady we do not have plans to change the balistic model.

And incase you disn't notice you and F4U are arguing the oposit side of things he thinks cannons are favored you think 50s are farvored.

HiTech

How about the damagemodel?

Are you contemplating modifying HE round damage (not balistics), or are you of the opinion it's ok?

4510 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2003, 03:52:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Flown more conservatively?

EL WRONGO!!

The F4U-1C has over 7,000 kills this past tour.
]

Well Glad we got that cleared up.

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA

By the way most WW2 pilots never even fired their guns unless they wee within 150yards. And there are many reports of aircraft on both sides coming back with up to 40 cannon hits and surviving. It is not even within the realm of possibilty that this could happen in AH currently.

]

Guess it depends on which books you read... they didn't often get to count the number of holes in the ones that didn't come back.

Some years back I spoke to a B17 pilot that was shot down and a prisoner of war. He spoke at a graduation for the Survival Escape Resistance and Evasion course at Fort Bragg. He said that it only took 4-5 20mm rounds to take down a B17 and maybe half that from 30mm. Of course it had to be in the right places obviously.

Mentioned in this thread.. is a question I have often had. The cannon rounds, given the necessary penetration should still effect the same amount of damage based on HE.

The MG rounds being kinetic should become less potent.. significantly so at longer ranges.

I have no idea if this is modeled in AH... I know I rarely fire outside of 400 if I have a choice.. however... at 200 the FW just obliterates most fighters. Not as good on the bombers obviously.