Author Topic: school vouchers (Read 4165 times)

Kieran · « **Reply #180 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:11:10 PM »

Well said, banana. Let's see what happens when someone finally sues a private school for denial of entry. School vouchers could make that a difficult thing for private schools to do.

I am not defending bad teachers, unions, or even the status quo. What I am extremely frustrated about is the total absence of any tangible proof that parents see their part in this mess. So far, the sum total of anti-public school posts have merely said "broken; we're leaving".

Sensitive, Lazs? Not really... venting is more like it. This little microcosm is very indicative of the cross-section of people in the country discussing this issue. You have people that are in the process that see the wrong, and you have people outside the process that see the scores. One thing I know for sure, I will never successfully change your mind about the issue. I have discussed nothing unreasonable, factually incorrect, or far-fectched, but somehow you have ignored all that. I could bluntly ask you where you school policies come from, but would you answer?

Rude · « **Reply #181 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:16:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!

There ya go...feels kinda good, don't it?

Actually, the public school my kids attend is one of the top districts in the US...of course the area is well off and the majority of parents are professionals.

Vouchers sound great, however, they will solve nothing in the end. The real problem is with our society as a whole...deep rooted social and moral issues have left adults(and I use that term loosely) ill equiped to be responsible for themselves, much less children.

It's just easy to blame others, in this case teachers. Is the public education system in this country healthy as a whole? Absolutely not...there is so much corrupt administration of resources, misdirected leadership and overall incompetence, nothing short of a complete overhaul will fix it.

Until folks step up and take responsiblility for their own actions, it will only get worse....and guess what? It will not get better in the future.

It took 3000 folks dying in NY for us to be nice to each other...that lasted for about 6 months. The conditions of men's hearts is the real problem...until we begin to take a look in that direction, nothing will improve.

Kieran · « **Reply #182 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:17:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
You're making a strong case for private schools. If a child is a discipline problem in public school what motivation does the parent have to become involved? For a private school it may only be the trouble of finding another school and perhaps the inconvenience of providing transportation. Still, that may spark more interest in helping their child to do better.

How many public schools still allow corporal punishment? Wanna bet it's allowed and even encouraged by parents far more in private schools? Some of you may think this is a bad thing. You're the ones that I want to take the control from.

On the first point, how long before public education becomes the equivalent of the prison system, kind of an "Escape From New York" scenario? If you continue to pull kids into the private schools, refusing to admit the other kids (can you say "lawsuit"?), how do you expect that to improve public schools? You can't, and I don't honestly think you believe it will.

On the second point, don't bet the farm on that one. Public schools got tired of getting sued. Takes a lot of taxpayer money to fight the lawsuits, you know. Private schools can be sued, too. I believe in corporal punishment, so I agree with you there, but in this litigious age it isn't going to happen. There are still a few holdout schools, but they are turning away from corporal punishment in droves.

midnight Target · « **Reply #183 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:17:21 PM »

In New York IIRC, the revised system was not a voucher system, but a revamping of the public school system. They created smaller neighborhood schools.

Kieran · « **Reply #184 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:20:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
In New York IIRC, the revised system was not a voucher system, but a revamping of the public school system. They created smaller neighborhood schools.

I could believe that. Consolidation is not always a good thing.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #185 on:** September 10, 2003, 04:33:43 PM »

Quote

On the first point, how long before public education becomes the equivalent of the prison system, kind of an "Escape From New York" scenario? If you continue to pull kids into the private schools, refusing to admit the other kids (can you say "lawsuit"?), how do you expect that to improve public schools? You can't, and I don't honestly think you believe it will.

as long as the reason for tossing kids out of private schools is based on their behavior and not on illeagal(discriminitory) factors then I see no problem.

yes there is a very good chance that if a voucher system is put in place public schools woul end up being a holding pen for those who refuse to take their education seriously. quite possibly a 'halfway-house' on the way into prison.

and teachers who stay in public schools may find their roles changing from educator to more of a prison guard

but my conscern isn't with the welfare of the public school system, the teachers, or even if some kids get left behind. my concern is that any child who is ready and willing to learn having some where to go where that is at least a possability

wrag · « **Reply #186 on:** September 10, 2003, 05:21:15 PM »

The 4 questions at the bottom of this article are way way way out of line!!!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34523

From my view point the questions appear to be designed to encourage rather then consider. To press for action rather then thought. Seeming Emotional/sexual button pressing at the very time when hormones are running wild and self control can be most difficult. Increasing the risk of STD's etc....

This suggest to me that the special interest group involved is seeking converts, and not giving much thought to most of the individual students, but only to the students that think and feel as they do.

California ?

Figures.

These are the kind of special interest groups that should not have so much clout!

Not sayin they should be ignored, am sayin they have far too much clout.

But am also sayin what I see the politicians doing in CA is what made me leave the state of my birth. They have just gone too far already and it looks as if there is NO END in sight.

One of them actually stood before the others and declared the only right anyone has is to think what they want. No other rights!

How nice, a .. you can think what you want but you will check with us before you do anything, kinda governing?

A Democrat? YEP!

NO i'm neither a Democrat or a Republican!

Kieran · « **Reply #187 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:13:11 PM »

Wrag-

That's exactly the kind of crap that happens to us. I can't stand it, I don't think it has any place in the school, and I can't blame parents for being infuriated. In case anyone doesn't know it, I have two daughters in public schools, I know what it is like to be a parent, too.

Holden-

I'll bite on this one a little...

Why would public education cost more per student?

1. Free/Reduced book rental for families unable to pay fees.
2. Free/Reduced lunch for kids who can't pay for lunches.
3. Before/After school programs for latchkey kids.
4. Transportation of students.
5. Special Education.
6. Vision/Hearing testing.
7. Sports programs.
8. Vocational programs.
9. Intramural programs.
10. Expanded curriculum (think "liberal arts" like in college).
11. Counseling and Psychologists for troubled students.

I'm sure there are many more things I've left out, both dispensible and indespensible. Let's take transportation... in a rural community like ours, transportation alone costs something in the order of $200,000 a year (I happen to know this because the number was given to us as reason why all field trips are cancelled forever). Almost 60% of our student population is on free or reduced lunch. We are forced by law (but not funded for) to offer before and after school care, and serve meals on both ends. Anyway, you get the idea... private schools don't have to deal with the issues I've listed above- yet.

How will the ACLU feel about students being excluded from private schools accepting voucher money?

How will the NAACP feel about minority students rejected from private schools accepting vouchers?

How will private schools deal with equal opportunity provisions in education guaranteed under the 14th amendment and the "Least Restrictive Environment" (LRE) mandate? Will they simply reject disabled students based on...?

Now boys, I hate to say it, but these ARE the hard questions none of you have addressed. Vouchers COULD work if factors like this could be eliminated, but the fact is they cannot be- at least, not yet. You stakeholders better get your butts in gear, because ACLU, NAACP, and Special Education advocates live for the kind of crap private schools are going to have to pull to maintain their superiority.

Notice I haven't even mentioned yet what happens when a regular ed student's parent(s) get upset when their child is held to a standard. And it will happen. Maybe the school will hold their line. Maybe they won't. We'll see. I think Ski had it right earlier though... some of these schools will wish to remain exclusive, and will price the school out of voucher range. A few will be able to get away with that, but doubtful all could. So... changes will come.

There's the concern for the bottom line, and how will it be reached? Will schools do what you think they will, and hire only the best teachers? Or will they do what schools under budget crisis do now- hire the kids right out of school, because they are cost-effective? My bet is they will do what the public schools do, and hire the cheap help. That's economic reality.

Nash spoke of working some advertising for private schools, and suggested we'd be surprised how much. Once again, Ski seems to have hit the mark. Truth in advertising is a myth, as anyone in our hobby should surely know by now.

The strengths of private* schools can be summed up in the following:

1. Focused curriculum
2. Lessened restrictions and mandates
3. Able to eliminate distractive/destructive students
4. Able to eliminate poor performing students (boosts scores, don't it now?

)
5. Free from educational compromise forced by inclusive curriculums.

These advantages come at the price of not accepting public money. Can these advantages be maintained with public money? Not under current law, at least, not in my state.

*Edit: "Private" for "Public".

Twist · « **Reply #188 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:57:56 PM »

Regardless of the reason, it is still the responsibility of the parents to insure a proper education for their children.

Parents currently have the right to choose private over public institutions and pay through the nose for it. It would help to have some of the monies collected from property tax etc, currently earmarked for public school funding, follow them to their school of choice.

I am uncomfortable with the idea of the county, state or federal government sending money to a private institution, it's just not a good idea for a number of reasons. Vouchers or tax credits seem to be the easiest way to accomplish this without muddling the division of church and state.

When my kids were age 4 and 5 they attended a private school kindergarden program. Because K4/K5 is not mandatory in this state I was able to pay their tuition using an FSA. Child care is what they called it. Why is that so different than having a tax credit for private school tuition?

Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to send them to a private institution, no matter what it costs. I just won't retire at 55 like I had planned.

RazerRFS

wrag · « **Reply #189 on:** September 11, 2003, 06:15:32 AM »

WOW this guys makes some very serious claims. Just a part of what he says.

Here is a summarized list of the ACLU’s agenda:

· Legalized child pornography

· Tax exemptions for Satanists

· Abortion on demand

· Mandatory sex education

· Ideological tests for court appointees

· Public demonstrations by Nazis and Communists

· Legalized polygamy

· Busing

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/09/11/tedlang.htm

I seem to recall hearing some of this stuff quite some time ago from another source.

That 1st one is disturbing.

Also the writer seems to be tryin to connect the NEA?

The writer claims this info is takin/obtained directly from some portion of the ACLU web site??????

Makes ya wonder if part of it, or all of it, is one of those rumors that just won't die or ........

Kieran · « **Reply #190 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:18:26 AM »

#5 is happening right now. What big question do you think the Dems are asking appointees? How many judges have been blocked in this administration's time?

#6 is legal now.

#3 might as well be legal.

#4 is one step away from being true (in schools).

#8... not sure what you mean by this. WRT school, we've had this a looooong time.

#2 Churches enjoy tax exemptions, so I assume someone claiming a satanistic religion might be able to argue the point.

lazs2 · « **Reply #191 on:** September 11, 2003, 08:59:48 AM »

kieran.. it is you not I that refuses to answer.. I have said that it is the buerocracy that makes the decisions for public schools... that and the Unions... things that us as parents have little or no say in... certainly you agree that p[arents have a better chance of affecting private schools policies. You on the other hand have refused to offer any solution to fixing public schools.... you don't want to fix em... you want to drag it on and on until you retire.

It has been shown in test after test that the worst students in the public school system do better under privat schools... the public schools may not refuse admission to anyone but they have reached 100% saturation on dropouts.... they manage to get more people to drop out than anyone would have ever thought possible.... a real, tangible accomplishment of our public school system.

can anyone name any parent in the U.S. that doesn't think public schools are broken?

lazs

Kieran · « **Reply #192 on:** September 11, 2003, 09:18:15 AM »

Quote

You on the other hand have refused to offer any solution to fixing public schools.... you don't want to fix em... you want to drag it on and on until you retire.

Well, I submit this is a lie.

Address my points if you dare, you don't, I know.

No one is arguing that currently private schools outperform public schools. No question about that. But what YOU refuse to do is examine WHY that might be, or HOW it might change with public moneys being accepted by the private schools.

If I can exclude anyone that might make my school look bad, I will look very, very good.

If I can expel any student underperforming, my school scores are going to look very, very good.

If I can avoid having to offer "feel-good" programs, I will not waste valuable time and money.

Private schools can do that- for now. They won't legally be able to do that once they take public money. Ignore that point all you like, but it won't change the fact.

Vouchers will not make ACLU, NAACP, NEA, parent advocates, Congress, state governments, and the 14th Amendment go away. That is my argument. You give me... "competition almost always makes business better." Is that all you have?

You are going to have to deal with these institutions directly and definitively. That, sadly, means people will actually have to get off their butts and be politically active. I haven't much hope that will happen either.

Schools will suck if they stay the same. They're gonna suck under vouchers too, for the very same reasons they suck under the status quo. Vouchers don't solve anything really, they attempt to sidestep the issue.

AKIron · « **Reply #193 on:** September 11, 2003, 09:29:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
If I can exclude anyone that might make my school look bad, I will look very, very good.

If I can expel any student underperforming, my school scores are going to look very, very good.

Kieran, you keep saying this and while I admit that it's true that doesn't mean that it happens. Or at least that it happens on a significant scale. You have numbers or are you just speculating?

BB Gun · « **Reply #194 on:** September 11, 2003, 09:44:53 AM »

I wish I could see the source studies for this:

http://www.ncpa.org/bothside/krt/krt051701a.html

Quote

Many other studies ¾ in New York, Cleveland and Washington, D.C. -- have found that school choice consistently helps children who opt for private schools. But what about students who are left behind?

It turns out that they benefit too. In response to the loss of students, for example, the Milwaukee public school system closed its six worst schools and made improvements in others. Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby has found that this is not uncommon -- quality improves wherever public schools are forced to compete.

We cannot afford to leave low-income children trapped in failing schools. Giving school choice to families who have been priced out of the housing market is an idea whose time has come.

WA state's (failed) voucher proposal did the following: of the 6000 the state spends per student on education, 4000 would be given to the parents in the form of a voucher. If their kid left his school, he'd onlyh take 2/3 of the money with him - acutally INCREASING the moneys per capita within the school he left. And STILL the WEA (washington Education Association) screeched bloody murder.

BB