Author Topic: 'I Decline to Accept the End of Man'  (Read 1494 times)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2003, 09:41:47 AM »
It's a perception... and I'll probably say it poorly... but bear with me.

Being from California, I get the taste of an older mindset, a different culture every time I visit the South.

The Civil War and the politics that surrounded it never seem to leave the consciousness of the people who have lived there for generations. It's pervasive. The sense that I am surrounded by feelings and perceptions that have been passed down from generation to generation. I suspect that the many of the people that live there barely notice it, but at the same time assume that everyone they see (within the standard racial markers) shares this same sense.

I don't belong to it. I don't understand it... but I can sense this lack of the same feeling in myself. I am in a sense, a foreigner.

I suspect that the same thing occurs in Europe. They have their own history, their own wars, their own cultural bias. I suspect that it is much the same as our own Civil War cultural heritage. It's just older and I can't share their feelings either.
sand

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2003, 11:20:25 AM »
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Then we elected Bill Clinton, who declined to confront our worst enemies in the peculiar belief that they would more or less return the courtesy. And so came Sept. 11, 2001.


This is a load of crap perpetrated by the Right in this Country. History proves it wrong!

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2003, 12:35:19 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This is a load of crap perpetrated by the Right in this Country. History proves it wrong!



HOW???

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2003, 12:39:51 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
A war on terrorism cannot be won with arms, it can only encourage it.




Please enlighten us as to your recommended solutions, note, we will not all convert to Islam and we will not leave the face of the earth.

I know of no other requirements that they have so that "we can all get along"

Waiting for your answers with breath holding....

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2003, 12:44:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Scootter
HOW???


You dont remember?  He fired a cruise missile and some nasty words the day of his indictment.

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2003, 01:54:13 PM »
OK OK I understand, to stop Al-Quieda all we have to do is go along with thair demands....


Al Qaeda's main goals:
Remove Western influence from Islamic lands. In practice, this means eliminating American military, cultural, and political influence from predominantly Islamic countries in the Middle East and Central Asia.
Destroy governments in Islamic lands that are supported by and linked to the democracies of the U.S. and Western Europe and that have made peace with and recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel.
Establish orthodox Islamic regimes throughout regions where Muslims are the majority of the population and put into practice the strict tenets of Shari'a law.


http://college.hmco.com/currentconflict/students/history/alqaeda.html

In an al-Qaeda house in Afghanistan, New York Times reporters found a brief statement of the “Goals and Objectives of Jihad”:

Establishing the rule of God on earth
Attaining martyrdom in the cause of God
Purification of the ranks of Islam from the elements of depravity
In 1998, several al-Qaeda leaders issued a declaration calling on Muslims to kill Americans—including civilians—as well as “those who are allied with them from among the helpers of Satan.”



Now of course this is just thair main goals as of now, I don't think they would add any others or change them, Do you?


So we can stop the attacks that are promised by this method as opposed to the use of arms.

Do you think there will be any others that would try the same methods if we go along with these demands??

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2003, 02:03:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You dont remember?  He fired a cruise missile and some nasty words the day of his indictment.


I applaude this admins restraint in not pointing out how the policies of the previous admin resulted in a 9/11 attack

makes me sick to my stomach that the media doesn't point out the fact

you think if it were reversed the same courtesy would be shown?

nah
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2003, 02:26:02 PM »
I'd like some of you guys laying the blame on Clinton for 9/11 to please show me the Republican declarations at the time calling for greater action against Bin Ladin. I'd like you to post the campaign soundbites, the op-ed editorials, etc. As convenient as it is to ignore the lack of concern on BOTH sides, it a bit hypocritical too.

Here's a transcript from Jim Lehrer News Hour in 1998 after the cruise misslile attack on targets in the Sudan. All you hear is support, and not a word about the response being lacking or more being needed.

Some highlights from Republican Congressional members taking part in the discussion:

Quote
SEN. JOHN KYL, (R) Arizona: Yes, I support the president’s action, both because of the connection of Osama bin Laden to past terrorist activities, as well as the threats that he has made against Americans around the world in the future.

***

SEN. ROD GRAMS, (R) Minnesota: Well, I agree as well, and I think we needed to send a very strong and very clear message to terrorists around the world that Americans will not stand for this type of terrorist activity or terrorist threats, either the ones on the embassies in Africa recently, or any planned threats in the future. So I very strongly support this, and I think these raids were carried out, I hope, very successfully.

JIM LEHRER: And do you believe that they will be effective—in other words, that they will result in a reduction of terrorism or possible terrorism by these groups?

SEN. ROD GRAMS: Well, I think we can look at what happened when such a retaliatory attack was done on Gaddafi in Libya. We haven’t heard much from him since, and I hope that this same type of message is sent to Mr. bin Laden, that the United States will not tolerate this--when any American citizen is threatened anywhere in the world, that we have a very long reach, and we have a very long memory, and that we will retaliate with this type of a strike any time American lives are threatened or when any Americans are killed.

***
In fact, some Republicans were even claiming these attacks were some unnecessiary "Wag the Dog" type of deal, which was discussed.

JIM LEHRER: Did it leap to you—to the back of your mind, Senator?

SEN. ROD GRAMS: Yes, it did. I had this question, and although, you know, I just kind of thought about it, because of the movie "Wag the Dog" and—

JIM LEHRER: Sure.

SEN. ROD GRAMS: --other things that have come up, but, you know, my first thought was, of course, that I supported the president’s action, and I thought this was a very appropriate response. But then again in reflection I think that comes to the surface of many people’s minds, and of course that was just reiterated by many of the calls that I had today.

***


I remember an awful lot of stuff like this, but I just can't recall, even after the USS Cole, any real desire by anybody -- politicians, citizens, etc. to do much more. Wasn't a public issue, wasn't a campaign issue and wasn't on anybody's radar until 9/11.

Charon
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 02:30:36 PM by Charon »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2003, 02:36:52 PM »
Did you know that the "Department of Homeland Security" was first proposed by a member of the CLINTON staff?

The 1st WTC bombing occured only weeks after Clinton took office, but no one calls that a Bush Sr. issue. The perps of the 1st bombing were caught and convicted... do nothing?

Offline Charon

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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2003, 02:49:49 PM »
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The 1st WTC bombing occured only weeks after Clinton took office, but no one calls that a Bush Sr. issue. The perps of the 1st bombing were caught and convicted... do nothing?


I think the biggest problem we had was a lack of imagination due to how inept the first attack was. They weren't taken all that seriously. But they kept working the problem until they found a subtle, but brilliant solution that took advantage of procedural/cultural patterns concerning hijacking. Hopefully It won't happen again for a while.

Charon

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2003, 04:07:03 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Mr. Scootter, I don't know the specific reasons why the terrorist are attacking you. I do however know that I won't convert to Islam, neither will most of my countrymen, neither will most of the British, French, Germans, Russians, Italians, Japanese etc. etc. etc. Nevertheless the terrorists (these particular anyway) don't attack us, they single you out for destruction, there must be another reason. History shows that you cannot win a war against terrorism with arms, no war on terrorism has ever been won ... ever. The only way to stop terrorism is to get the people who support them to support you instead. As long as the terrorists can rally people to their cause they win. A war on terrorism is the ultimate public opinion battle.


History is being written as we speak, and I disagree with you that terrorism has never been defeated, but perhaps that is a matter of definition.

 I can only guess what the future holds for all of us, however Americans are not to only ones killed in this war, we in the US must be the largest threat to them for now (you should feel lucky). The terrorist are attacking the largest influence to the world ( and the largest target) if you were on one of the jets on Sep 11 you would be just as dead regardless of you home country. There is a point to your post that I agree with you must stop people from supporting them as with out funding, a safe haven to train and weapons they are little more then a gang with no real projection of power. This is what we are doing, we will support any friend and oppose any foe to that end, you see we have no other choice. It would be impossible to befriend someone who wants you dead.


Regards,

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2003, 04:43:45 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Mr. Scootter, I don't know the specific reasons why the terrorist are attacking you.
The terrorists are attacking us because of our support for Israel, plain and simple.  All of the rest of the "Great Satan" spew that we hear from the Middle East is just rhetoric that the Terrorists-In-Charge use to whip up a frenzy in their terrorbots.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 04:46:40 PM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2003, 04:59:26 PM »
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Originally posted by Charon
I'd like some of you guys laying the blame on Clinton for 9/11 to please show me the Republican declarations at the time calling for greater action against Bin Ladin. I'd like you to post the campaign soundbites, the op-ed editorials, etc. As convenient as it is to ignore the lack of concern on BOTH sides, it a bit hypocritical too.


Ill do you one better.  There is a copy of a letter to Clinton signed by a great number of both Party members from Congress floating somewhere on the net - it was posted here once before - Ill see if I can dig it up.

PS:  Rgr that Eagler - the restraint this adminstration has shown in many aspects is amazing - I think accountability is the key word.

Do you hear Bush whining about bad information from Iraqi informants?  Nope.

Do you hear Bush whining about bad information from Britain?  Nope.

Do you hear Bush not taking responsibilty for anything or pushing the blame elsewhere?  Nope and Nope.

Meanwhile, the Democrats dont stop to breath in their crusade to pin the worlds problems on someone else besides them...

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2003, 05:01:36 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
One thing popped up in my mind as I was reading your reply was that aside from the obvious possible reasons (Israel, US presence in the region etc.) there might be another ... simpler reason. In my country we have a Lutheran clergyman as prime minister, yet he never mentions God in any of his speeches (AFAIK). It is considered un-PC since we're a multi cultural/religious society. I seldom hear other world leaders mention God either, but in the USA it is customary for politicians and the President in particular to mention God, like "God bless America" and "God willing we will ...". Could it be that these Islamic extremists are afraid of you rather than hate you? Combined with your active presence in the region, could they see you as modern crusaders of Christianity? Just a thought.
Not likely, because many of the Arab states are more theocratic than constitutionally permissible in the U.S.  Moreover, unless I am mistaken, Arabs, Christians, and Jews all believe in the God of Abraham, by whatever name.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2003, 05:19:34 PM »
Robert Oakley (former U.S. State Department coordinator for counterterrorism regarding counterterrorist activity ) - "Overall I give them (Clinton's administration) very high marks, The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama, which made him stronger."

Oakley's successor in the Reagan admin Paul Bremer - (the Clinton admin.)"Correctly focused on Bin Laden".