Author Topic: Shameful intolerance from the wise land of 1300 year old cathedrals..  (Read 2485 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Shameful intolerance from the wise land of 1300 year old cathedrals..
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2003, 08:24:59 AM »
I clearly said several times in this thread and others that my criticizm of europe is based on the WAY they opposed the Iraq war - if they wanna oppose war thats fine - like I said in this thread before. If thats new to you carbofix then perhaps you arent reading the posts and are just attacking me because you dont like my or what you percive are my views.  My concern is the BS they used to justify their opposition instead of being open and honest about their national self interest in Iraq...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 08:27:01 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2003, 08:33:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
.....Looking on to how the things are developing in the Iraq and the lack of the WMD´s so on, so on, it does´nt seam like the protests where that arrogant.

Part of the mandate that brought the attack against Iraq concerned the ongoing attempts at development and procurement of Iraqi  WMD.  They are now beginning to unearth tons of data and lab equipment that was hidden to prevent it's discovery by UN Inspection Teams.  Every day more scientists come forward as they realise the US and Britain will not abandon them and help to uncover more.  While most of you see Iraq as a small country on the map., in realitty it is large and will take quite a while to find all the eveidence.

Even if the people in the USA belive that thier leaders cant do anything wrong, this is way diffrent in country´s like France, Greece and Germany.

That is an assinine statement, we do believe that our leaders make mistakes, but we also support them when they do and make attempts to fix them.

To join in a unlegimate attack on a already beaten up country, just because "big daddy"  say they got WMD´s, but no proof, would be political suicide.

THe fact that the US has alreay uncovered tons of evidence of an ongoing bio and nuclear weapons program is enough to more than cover then legitamacy of the attack.  But, maybe we could have waited until an actual weapon was used against a target, then gone into Iraq.  That's so wonderful an idea, it is definitely European....  :rolleyes:

The political turbelance in Europe would have been enourmus right now and maybe riots, fall of goverments, etc, etc.

So what that says is that your governments are that shaky that this issue would cause anarchy on a national scale, that include the overthrow of a government?  Further makes me glad that I am American and not European.

Nato, is still alive, disturbed: yes, but still breathing. But it is dying and the last relic of the cold war is soon gone.
After the fall of the Soviet state and the Warzawa-pact, it is useless to keep it alive.  The Cold war is old and soon only a couple of lines in the history books.

Now isn't that just a Eurotrash comment.  NATO is the reason that you are still free, and you would do best to remember that.  That and it's continued commitment to the defense of it's member states from aggresion foreign and domestic will ensure it stay around a long time.  Your own words stated that your governments are easily overthrown by riots, that alone should make you want to have troops to keep the peace.  Does Bosnia ring a bell?  Nato deployed troops there as well, but I guess allowing genocide is ok by most of you Europeans, hell it has never bothered you with what happened in Iraq.


It is amazing how this attitude pervades from Europe, one that says genocide in foreign lands is ok, so long as they continue to trade with us in oil for food and medicine deals.  It further disgusts me that your expert opinions on finding WMD's state it must be done within 3 weeks of the war's end.  I guarantee you they will find WMD's, or atleast determine where they went, but it is going to take time.  TIme for the Iraqui people to realise that the Baathists are out of power for good, and that they need not fear the return of a police state that tortured and murdered MILLIONS of it's own people.  Your European attitude disgusts me, and it disgusts a good portion of my country.  Why don't you pull your heads out of your arses and look outside Europe and realise the world needs help.
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Offline straffo

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Shameful intolerance from the wise land of 1300 year old cathedrals..
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2003, 08:35:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
My concern is the BS they used to justify their opposition instead of being open and honest about their national self interest in Iraq...


You still believe in honest politician ? :rofl :rofl
Be serious please :)

Concerning self-interest ,sure the interest of those politician+businessman not the interest of their nation.

Note that it concern all the countries involved in this conflict not only one.



How did I end in the "Racist Biggot Ignore List " ?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 08:38:40 AM by straffo »

Offline AVRO1

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« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2003, 08:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I agree with everyting you said here.  But seeing as how things went down regarding Iraq and all the shallow moralizing of euro leaders and arrogant protests aginst the cowboy USA I thought it appropriate to point out the fact that European people dont have clean hands either. Because cetainly that was the image they were trying to pass in criticizing the US "warmongering" in Iraq.
Especially whn they said thing invoking Europes old wisdom or such nonsense -  I asked whewre that old wisdom was during ww2 or ww1, or colinal wars or in the yugo civil war, or the holocaust or communism.


European moralizing you say?

What about the stupid French bashing that went on constantly?
Things like France sucks and other equally intellectual discourse.
It sounded like an elementary school playground.

Both side bashed, so get on with your life.

Capitalism as its flaws just like Communism.
If you want proof of that, visit a ghetto.

Everything as advantages and disadvantages.
Nothing is perfect.

Offline DmdNexus

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« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2003, 08:51:06 AM »
An analogy....

If Iraq were the neighbor across the street, and this neighbor was a bully and notorious for beating up the neighborhood kids, notorious for sneaking into to next door neighbor's yards and stealing tomatoes, kicking their dogs, molesting their pumpkin patches.... oh yah.. and selling crack cocaine to grandmas...

Alright, so Iraq is a very very bad neighbor... and the "UN" is the local government  (also the local police) made up of all the other neighbor's on the street (aka the other countries int he world)...

And this local government is a democracy... action is taken by majority vote... by free speech on the issues... and by the a willingness to be fair and to govern by law and rules.

So all the other countries in the world get together and vote to put Iraq under controll... and they do so... via the "gulf war" and the resolutions and restrictions which followed.

In such a democratic system, gives stability to the neighborhood because each neighbors knows that there are laws and rules that they all obided, and disbrutes between neighbors is settled not by "Might makes right", but by a system of laws that allows all issues to be considered using a "due process".

However, in this "lawful" system is a neighbor who is very powerful, very strong willed, arrogant, self righteous, professes democratic ideas, however, always wants their way, and uses their "Might", "Money", and coercines (overt and covert) to get their way.... and this country has done every evil that any other country has done... (slavery, oppressing women and children, racism, used WMD on their population [LSD, Nukes in Arizon and New Mexico, chemical warfare testing in Aberdeen, genicide [American Indians])... This neighbors initials are "USA" United States of Ice Holes.

So this USA goes to the democratic UN and says the neighbor Iraq is doing illegal things - we have no proof... but our spies tell us they are....

And there is a democratic vote to take action... and the due process says that there is no sufficient evidence that Iraq is doing anything wrong.

But the USA decides to be a vigilante... and take the "law" into their own hands... and guess what? there still is no evidence....

Would be nice if America were run by Vigilanties... then Might would make right... since the Majority of the people didn't vote for him... that would be the Majority of the people in the Right.

I would love to burn down some right wing zealots houses.... starting with the White House.... because the occupant of that house... has wiped his prettythang with the US constitution and brought disgrace to this country with his pompous arrogance.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2003, 08:55:31 AM »


Making fun of France has nothing to do with moralizing - its just making fun of France.  

The moralizing is what so many euro's did in protest of the war. All the calls of evil USA cowboy warmongering bullying unilateralism and how that was such an anethame to fine euro sensibilites about peace and international cooperatyion developed over thousands of years and such nonsense when europe does just the same stuff even after blowing itself up in ww2 and ww1 and then starting colonial wars after ww2 and dealing in arms and france unilatteraly continuing nuke tests, and unilaterally breaking from NATO allience to persue her own national self intrest to the detriment of others. So much BS...

Offline straffo

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« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2003, 09:10:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
and unilaterally breaking from NATO allience to persue her own national self intrest to the detriment of others. So much BS...


Inexact.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2003, 09:30:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Inexact.


Yes you are right France did not leave nato and did not order out all nato allies from france...

Offline straffo

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« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2003, 09:36:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes you are right France did not leave nato


Yep France did not leave.

Quote
and did not order out all nato allies from france...


Dunno

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2003, 09:41:52 AM »
My undersatnding is that france is not a full miliatary member of NATO..

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2003, 09:48:48 AM »
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Originally posted by Spooky
Do you know that Chirac almost won the peace nobel prize ?


Did you know that Arafat won it in the early 90's? Really, I would not lie to you. ;)

President Bush was one of 156 candidates considered for the 2002 Peace Prize, which was awarded in October 2002 to former President Jimmy Carter.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 11:37:11 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2003, 09:53:09 AM »
As far as I know France is not member of the what we call "commandement intégré" but I don't want to spend my evening reading about NATO's structures :)

I guess I'll try to read :

http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/f98-00.htm

Especially this document : http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/giglioli.pdf

Alessandra GIGLIOLI- Individual
Le Retrait de la France du Commandement Integre de l'OTAN.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 09:59:11 AM by straffo »

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2003, 11:29:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
It is amazing how this attitude pervades from Europe, one that says genocide in foreign lands is ok, so long as they continue to trade with us in oil for food and medicine deals.  It further disgusts me that your expert opinions on finding WMD's state it must be done within 3 weeks of the war's end.  I guarantee you they will find WMD's, or atleast determine where they went, but it is going to take time.  TIme for the Iraqui people to realise that the Baathists are out of power for good, and that they need not fear the return of a police state that tortured and murdered MILLIONS of it's own people.  Your European attitude disgusts me, and it disgusts a good portion of my country.  Why don't you pull your heads out of your arses and look outside Europe and realise the world needs help.


Now, you are saying the world needs help?
So you are stealing thier stuff away, is that helping? Do you want me to make a long, long, long, long, very , long list of Countries that you have been "helping" out of democracy to face torture, poverty, dictators?



SO The Aparthaid system in South-Africa was finelly beaten, but it was not by the help from the USA-UK. They supported this state and the system for ages. Was this helping? And tell me this was´nt a Policestate, how many people died under this period?

The sickest thing of it all is that: Your goverment actully supported the IRAQ´s and the Policestate that you are saying tortured and murdered millions. They even Supplied the Gas that was used against the kurds, the same gas that you guys cant find.

But that does not really matter, does it? It is irrilevant, because you say so? To me it is not irrilevant and it matters to me.

And can you tell me if thoose "3 weeks" gone by yet? Is the war over? Or is Your Goverment, declearing the "war over" just making another pathetic lie?

1200 persons with a 800 million dollar of budget, cant even come up with a tiny little WMD? Big country, my arse!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 11:32:30 AM by crabofix »

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2003, 01:39:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
Now, you are saying the world needs help?
So you are stealing thier stuff away, is that helping? Do you want me to make a long, long, long, long, very , long list of Countries that you have been "helping" out of democracy to face torture, poverty, dictators?



SO The Aparthaid system in South-Africa was finelly beaten, but it was not by the help from the USA-UK. They supported this state and the system for ages. Was this helping? And tell me this was´nt a Policestate, how many people died under this period?

The sickest thing of it all is that: Your goverment actully supported the IRAQ´s and the Policestate that you are saying tortured and murdered millions. They even Supplied the Gas that was used against the kurds, the same gas that you guys cant find.

But that does not really matter, does it? It is irrilevant, because you say so? To me it is not irrilevant and it matters to me.

And can you tell me if thoose "3 weeks" gone by yet? Is the war over? Or is Your Goverment, declearing the "war over" just making another pathetic lie?

1200 persons with a 800 million dollar of budget, cant even come up with a tiny little WMD? Big country, my arse!



This is rediculous Crabofix.  You claim that 1200 people searching a country of 437,072 square kilometers with an 800 million dollar budget should have found something by now?  Well guess what, THEY HAVE....  THey have found mobile Chemical Weapons Labs.  Literally tons of documents on how to process, manufacture, store, and employ Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear Weapons.  They have found Cultures of Biological Strains that are chemical weapon related.  ALL THINGS THE IRAQIS WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE.  Yet this is not enough for the Eurotrash malcontents...  THey want a smoking gun, well how about we wait until these terrorists take some of these WMD's that have OBVIOUSLY been dispersed and detonate a weapon in say London, or New York.  Lets just see how you stunninghunks like living down wind from an incident like that.  To say we acted prematurely and without cause is bullsh$t and you flipping know it.  Any country or individual with enough commonsense could see where this was going, continued Iraqi aggression against civilians and the proliferation of their WMD technologies and weapons to terrorist groups.  What the rest of the imbeciles whining about it are trying to achieve is to condemn the US and Britain for acting because it upset their applecart of oil for BLOOD.  ANd thats what your trade amounted to, Oil for the BLOOD of the Iraqi people.

If you ask me, you should be ashamed for not acting in concert with us.  

Oh, and as for saying we did nothing to end apartheid is a further lie, we helped with economic sanctions and Clinton helped to bolster talks to change the government.
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Offline AVRO1

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Shameful intolerance from the wise land of 1300 year old cathedrals..
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2003, 02:05:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
How did I end in the "Racist Biggot Ignore List " ?


Tu sais tres bien pourquoi Straffo.

Tu est Francais and tu n'est pas d'accord avec lui. :D

Je suis decu de toi Straffo. :p
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 02:09:14 PM by AVRO1 »