Author Topic: Are you spending your way to disaster?  (Read 2911 times)

Offline gofaster

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Are you spending your way to disaster?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2003, 01:58:53 PM »
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Everyone please forward this to your local Democrat, its so simple even they may understand it.  Maybe.


You're right.  The government should raise taxes so it won't have to borrow on credit.

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2003, 02:02:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Oh, the one where you'd actually be RESPONSIBLE for your overspending actions? Yah, we'd hate to make people actually responsible for stupid decisions.


If that's true, its gonna kill small business, agricultural economies, and new business start-ups.

Offline capt. apathy

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Are you spending your way to disaster?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2003, 02:02:45 PM »
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How many times did you haul your laundry up to the laundromat before deciding "That's it. I'm buying my own washer and dryer!".  

You pay cash for your furniture, too?


many times.

and yes.

you just live with crappy furniture for a few years while you save.
my first living room set was 2 bean bag chairs. my kitchen table was a wire spool and 2 milk crates.  it sucked but I made do for a couple months before I could buy a crappy table and chairs and a couch.  I paid $50 for my first washer/dryer set.  bought $20 in parts and they ran for 2 or 3 years while I saved money for the next set.

you make sacrifices, you don't always(or even often) get the new toys you want, but you get by and you don't build 20 or 30 k in card debt.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 02:05:00 PM by capt. apathy »

Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2003, 02:06:50 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
you're kidding right?  since we have had a republican ran gov't our deficit has been steadily growing.


I stand corrected...:rolleyes:
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2003, 02:09:16 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
many times.

and yes.

you just live with crappy furniture for a few years while you save. and I paid $50 for my first washer/dryer set. bought $20 in parts and they ran for 2 or 3 years while I saved money for the next set.

you make sacrifices, you don't always(or even often) get the new toys you want, but you get by and you don't build 20 or 30 k in card debt.


Must be nice to have the tools and talent to fix your own machines. Its not a skill everyone has.

Credit cards can get away with charging high interest because they're considered unsecured loans and bear a high risk to the lender. If the credit card risk was diminshed, would we start seeing lower APRs? If the APR went down, would we see more consumer spending? Or, if people couldn't get out of debt through bankruptcy, would consumer spending go down?

Having cash for a new bedroom set and living room set and dining room set is a luxury few have. I sure wouldn't want to be driving around town with $7,000 in cash in my car on my way to Rooms To Go.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 02:11:49 PM by gofaster »

Offline capt. apathy

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Are you spending your way to disaster?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2003, 02:16:40 PM »
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Must be nice to have the tools and talent to fix your own machines. Its not a skill everyone has.


tools yes, I had a decent set before I left home.  I started giving my son tools instead of toys when he turned 11 or 12, so he can be more self suficient.

as far as tallent I had no idea how to fix the stuff.  it's motivated learning.  it's broke you can't afford to pay someone to fix it and you can't do with out it.  if you can't figure it out go to the library and read, most repairs are very simple.  

machanical parts - look for parts that are obviosly bent or broken, then replace them,  if they bend or brake again look for the parts that could have done that too them and replace those.

electrical is even easier- look for melted parts or ones with smoke stains around them.

basicly if it's a choice of do it yourself or do without, and you have no money to spend going to the bar or doing anything entertaining, you spend your time trying to fix stuff.  if you can't fix it you've lost nothing and usually learned something.

I never learned to work on cars until I married a woman who could break them faster than I could earn the money to pay someone else to fix it.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2003, 02:24:08 PM »
You guys do realize that if you can borrow at a rate below the inflation rate, you are making money?  The lender is paying you to borrow from them.  It's foolish not to borrow in that situation, as long as you are confident you can repay.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2003, 02:30:03 PM »
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You guys do realize that if you can borrow at a rate below the inflation rate, you are making money? The lender is paying you to borrow from them. It's foolish not to borrow in that situation, as long as you are confident you can repay.


for every person with the self-control not to spend that money, there are 10 others who are bragging about a 10% return on the 10k they have invested while paying 18% interest on a 20k card debt.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2003, 02:31:19 PM »
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We live in an economy that has become deeply dependent on the American consumer for growth.


 The guy is an idiot - like most keynesian economists. The "growth" usually means growth of production - which could only happen due to accumulation of the productive capital that allows to increase productivity per person and equip additional workers.

 In order to accumulate the productive capital, the real resources must be saved and invested in profitable ventures rather than consumed.

 If you spend 7 hours a day growing corn for consumption and 1 hour maintaining soil and tools, your economy does not grow. If you spend 6 hours a day growing corn and save one hour a day to improve the field/tools, in the beginning the consumption will drop by 1/7 but with years the productivity will increase and consumption will finally reach and exceed the starting one.
 Alternatively one can stop waisting 1 hour a day on maintaining soil and tools and spend all 8 hours growing corn for consumption. The consumption would grow 1/7 immediately but then decline to nothing as soil gets exausted and tools wear off.

 More contemporary example would be instead of buying a car and using it up you could buy the same car and invest it into a business, while driving an old one car for personal consumption. Actually you would just invest the car's worth of money into the company rather than delivering a car but it makes no difference resourcewise.
 As a result a new business is working of which you are a part-owner, enjoying additional revenue stream, while the new company is cranking out the products,  causing their prices to drop and our real wages (purchasing power) to raise.

 Or at least we should invest into the business enough to replace the worn-out capital -cars, machinery, skills. One can achieve a great increase in consumption by not replacing the worn-out capital. That is called "capital decumulation". We can buy cars for personal use instead of for business, use lumber and metal for bigger houses instead of replacing machinery, train social-studies majors instead of engineers and workers. Then once the factory gets worn out and trained old workers retire, we end up with ... nothing. Textile industry... gone. Steel industry... almost gone. Consumer goods manufacturing... gone. We had great time living down the capital accumulated by our ancestors.

 If the US economy is really growing - and that is a big "if", it may not have been for a while, whatever the government numbers say - it is certainly not because of consumption but because of savings (of real resources - so called "real funding", not paper money or computer account balances).

 There are two kinds of savings that are currently fuelling the growth (or slow the decline) of the US economy - the savings of the foreigners subcidising us via negative trade balance and the "forced savings" that steal the value of people's savings in favor of the recepients of the newly-printed money and credit expansion.


 Anyway, whatever real resources the foreigners invested into us in exchange for the dollars, IOUs and shares of capital, they will not be able to collect if we default - like we did to those suckers in 1971.

 The elderly with depreciated savings and unfunded social security obligations can go play with themselves, since even voting 100% tax rates will not raise enough taxes to cover their living and medical expenses. And as they die out of hunger, their share of votes will drop rapidly and so their taxing power.

 So for the rest of us the choice to make is based on what course the eventuall resolution will take.
 If the Fed will have to inflate exlosively in a futile attempt to honor the nominal obligations (FDIC insured accounts - get your guaranteed $100,000 and buy a whole chicken, SSA payments, etc.) - it will pay off to be deeply in debt. You buy a house for a million and then pay off that million when you raise and sell ten chickens.

 If the Fed freezes accounts, stops printing new money and changes currency so that 35 trillion outstanding dollars are invalidated, that will cause an explosive deflation, with prices/salaries dropping and that expensive house bought on credit being impossible to repay and having it reposessed.

 One way to exploit either situation is getting a huge loan and investing it into something that cannot be reposessed - like having children or a few pounds of gold coins.
 If inflation hits, you sell a kid or some of your hoard and repay easily. If deflation hits, you declare bancrupcy and live off your children/gold with just a bad credit rating.

 For the older guys - do not spend money on medications/treatment that will prolong your life. Instead spend it on fun that would shorten it - alcohol, smoke, lose women, junk food, etc.

 How is that for financial advice? ;)

 miko
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 02:37:10 PM by miko2d »

Offline Curval

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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2003, 02:33:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
for every person with the self-control not to spend that money, there are 10 others who are bragging about a 10% return on the 10k they have invested while paying 18% interest on a 20k card debt.


LOL....so true.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2003, 02:35:56 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
for every person with the self-control not to spend that money, there are 10 others who are bragging about a 10% return on the 10k they have invested while paying 18% interest on a 20k card debt.


LOL so true.
Whenever somebody asks me what investments I have, I tell them about my student loan.  :)

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2003, 02:44:14 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
In order to accumulate the productive capital, the real resources must be saved and invested in profitable ventures rather than consumed.
 


If you're investing in a venture, isn't that consuming the resource? ;)

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2003, 02:58:15 PM »
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You guys do realize that if you can borrow at a rate below the inflation rate, you are making money?  The lender is paying you to borrow from them.  It's foolish not to borrow in that situation, as long as you are confident you can repay.


I was once talking with an old family friend who had made his fortune providing the cameras at horse tracks - not just for photofinishes but the tv sets inside, too.  He told me an interesting story about how he got involved in the business.

His dad had told him, shortly after my friend had gotten out of the Navy, that he should go down to the bank and borrow money.  My friend had asked "Why?  I've got money.  I don't need to borrow anything."  His dad had told him that he should borrow the money, hold it for six months, then pay it back in full because it would build a credit history for him so that he could get a bigger loan to launch his business.  It would cost him interest payments, but at that time the inflation rate was just about to exceed the interest rate on the loan.  While it wouldn't amount to any real money, it did save him a few bucks when it came to pay it back, so I guess you could say he "earned" the delta between the interest and the inflation.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2003, 03:05:47 PM »
It's Bush's fault

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2003, 03:35:17 PM »
gofaster: If you're investing in a venture, isn't that consuming the resource? ;)

 Actually it does. But if the venture is profitable, the consumption of the resource will cause creation of a resource of greater value.

that he should go down to the bank and borrow money

 With current low interest rates the after-tax inflation-adjusted real mortagage rate is actually negative.

 miko